20 Episode results for "Ukraine"

WTF, Ukraine!

The Lawfare Podcast

53:03 min | 1 year ago

WTF, Ukraine!

"Was trying to tell trump is just as a sway. Jim and say look you know. I don't have my guide there yet yet but when I have my guy in that position yes Mr President. We will look into this. What's amazing is Cinco himself after he no longer holds the job of prosecutor general in May gives an interview to Bloomberg where she says Oh no there was investigation and in fact there was no wrongdoing coming found by one hundred byner Joe Biden any of the Biden's no violations of the law so basically sounds like a singer also promised to open investigation to appease what Giuliani wanted from him probably all those meetings and what trump is now referring to this phone call was Dolinsky but doesn't actually do anything he just says it yes. Can you help me give her this amassador. Our Open investigation I'm Quinta Jurassic and this is the Law Fair podcast October first twenty nineteen. The first two years of the trump presidency were tied up with the Russia scandal. Now there's another scandal involving Russia's next door neighbor Ukraine the revelation that president trump and his envoys pressured the Ukrainian government for information about debunked claims of Biden family corruption have brought Ukrainian domestic politics tech's onto the American stage. The Ukrainian side of this very American scandal is complicated yet vital to understanding the whistleblower complaint and the reality of what happened happened with Ukrainian prosecutor general and Joe Biden's son. I sat down with Lena Polyakova the director of the project and Global Democracy Emerging Technology Oh gee at the Brookings Institution to break it all down we discussed recent Ukrainian political developments what exactly Joe Biden did or didn't do in Ukraine and and what this might mean for the US Ukraine relationship going forward. It's the law fair podcast episode four hundred fifty seven W t f Ukraine so Alina. Let's start with the most basic question possible. What is the name of the country that we're about to discuss because a lot of Americans have been using the definite article in front of the name. We're GONNA be talking about Ukraine not the Ukraine. It's interesting interesting that we're starting with this because actually important and so in nineteen ninety three when Ukraine became an independent country outside of the Soviet Union in the government dropped or asked a foreign correspondence and other outlets as top using the because in the understanding when we use a definite article referring to a territory like you know the northern plains right or the south and so refers it implies that there is a piece of land that is currently being occupied or controlled in this context by Russia used to be controlled obviously see by the Soviet Union Ukraine has been a sovereign country for quite some time and so the correct usage is just Ukraine and Ukrainians is get very annoyed when people put the in front yes. It is kind of a cringe factor. If you ever hear a Western policymakers speaking to group of Ukrainians economists feel cringe spread across the room if they say the because it also implies that the person speaking doesn't actually know anything about the country they're talking about so it's a pretty basic thing to understand that when you're talking about a country usually during the definite article call especially don't use a in this highly highly sensitive political context and the sensitive political context that you mentioned gets to one of the big pieces that I think Americans sort of new to understand to understand the connection between Ukraine and Russia right so just walk me through how Ukraine sees its relationship with Russia and how Russia sees its relationship with Ukraine right so I'll try to do a brief history of the last twenty something years Ukraine Russia relations in about two minutes so basically Ukraine used to be part of the Soviet Union knows that Ukrainian Soviet republic little known fact is that it was actually in the nineteen fifties. Crimea became part of Ukraine. We we say that now but it was all the same countries Soviet Union so the time it didn't really matter if Crimea was part of Ukraine or Russia because these are all just part of a much larger country so new cream green becomes independent in in the early nineteen nineties after the fall of the Berlin Wall dissolution of the Soviet Union is still has a lot of economic relationships just basically Jessica transport relationships a- Russia because the entire Soviet infrastructure the industrial infrastructure was developed with the notion that all the countries are part of the Slovenian made up one single block so we're talking about gas exports for example. There's a reason why all of Russia's gas experts go to the two three Ukraine to on the way to your because this was the most direct route when we talk about you know trade in weapons systems are the entire military industrial complex was fully integrated between Russia and Ukraine and then families were fully integrated between Russia and Ukraine so loud family and Russian rice versa. I'm so it's been a really painful. It's cutting a limb off. I think from the Russian perspective when we fast forward a little bit two thousand four when we we have the first revolution Ukraine now called Orange Revolution where you couldn't go the streets to protest a fraudulent election outcome and the Kremlin Crumlin favorite this name I sound familiar Viktor Yanukovych gets kind of basically pushed out because the elections are recognized as being rod and not free and you Shinko Victoria Chicago the time prevails and becomes President in Oh four. That's the first revolution in Ukraine and that is the first sign line that this previously very tight relationship between Ukraine and Russia. was hitting a certain climax and it wasn't it couldn't really go go on as it had been going on faster ten more years and we get the second revolution ten years later because after two thousand four you shouldn't government doesn't it doesn't get done what Ukrainians wanted to get done meeting weeding out corruption getting rid of the oligarchs system which is also fully integrated with Russia the intelligence agencies agencies are fully integrated Russia in a way that doesn't serve Ukraine when we come to two thousand thirteen two thousand fourteen and we get another set of protest against who again Victor Yanukovych he in the meantime Kinda resurrects himself as a reformer a western pro-western leader by the way with the help uh of Paul Manafort who helps Yanukovych get reelected in two thousand ten. There's yet another revolution against him. That we call now the Euro my don revolution the Ukrainians call this the revolution of dignity which is how they prefer for it to be called in fact in the West as well and then we get ed patrol. Persian go becomes the president of Ukraine following the ousting of victory undercover who still hiding out in Russia and fast fast forward. We have elections in Ukraine now. The sheer and Shinko now loses pretty significant way in pretty embarrassing pursing way to somebody named Zilenski a television comedian very popular in Russia's well who has a very popular show in which he plays a schoolteacher who becomes an accidental president now of course you know in a way of reality replicating fiction we have Zilenski excuse to play president. TV become president real life and here we are we have president's alinsky dreamers. Keen Ukraine are former television actor. You're a comedian comes out the blue huge landslide victory over petro per Shaneco and a few months later we get these interesting phone calls so let me ask you a little more about Dolinsky before we get into the details of this phone call between him and trump. What is it about him that that vaults him to this unexpected expected victory. What is it that he's campaigning on. The people find attractive well. What's interesting is that he doesn't really campaign on anything. this may sound familiar to a lot of Americans meaning that he doesn't really have policy proposals or a vision for Ukraine he basically creates a new movement called Servant of the people which is the name of his very popular comedy show and at that point meaning this past spring in April which is when the presidential elections happen in a partial goes rose. WHO's the incumbent and the time his approval ratings are just dismal single digits and they've been in the single digits for a long time increasingly the has to do with the fact doc that Ukrainians are frustrated. They're not seeing change you know people died on the streets in Kiev during the my son Revolution Twenty thirteen twenty four gene that happened two thousand four. This was the first time that we actually see Ukrainians dying on the streets. There's a war in Ukraine's eastern. Donbas which Russia has started started over thirteen thousand Ukrainians died in that war. Crimea's occupied by Russia right so the context now. Is You know clearly that Ukraine crane has closed the door to the east. It's closed the George Russia and clearly headed towards the West but to head towards the West. You actually have to have rule of law. Oh you can't have a corrupt government. you can't have a close procurement system for example. You have to have judicial independence all these principles also in institutions of democracy and par. Shinko doesn't get things done at the pace that Ukrainians are satisfied with they become increasingly to me frustrated with the fact that corruption continues to remain their societies things like everyday corruption. You like you have to bribe the police offer. Sony get pulled over. You have to bribe five eight developer. If you're trying to buy an apartment I mean every single day and of course it's high level corruption of the political level and so at that point and Zilenski takes hold of an opportunity people are looking for new blood. They're looking for new faces. They're tired of these politicians. The only other potential candidate candidate in April during the presidential elections is also kind of an old familiar face. The Mula Timoshenko who was already Prime Minister wants to a two thousand four was in jail beyond coverage but long story. She's been around for a long time. People don't really trust her. and so- zilenski comes out boo but at the same time. I think people are just looking for a new face the looking for anything that's not the old regime and he wins by a huge landslide over seventy percent and and is a huge embarrassment departure Shangqiu but also beautiful moment for Ukraine because this is one of the first this is the first time where you have a completely peaceful transition of power up pershing co you have to give it to him resigns in a very diplomatic way and it happens like democratic process should happen and of course the Russians Russians looking onto this some Russians anyways in Russia with they've had Putin now for almost twenty years and looking to Ukraine they can't imagine Putin relinquishing shing power volunteer. They can't imagine that happening in their own countries so again here we have another wedge that starts to separate a Ukraine and Russia abusively forever and you mentioned the the sort of pull between East and West that Ukraine is going through and that is something that we've you've seen for for many many years obviously just tell me a little bit more about the way in which Ukraine is sort of trying to decide decide whether it's throwing its lot with the West with the in the US versus Russia and what sort of factions are well. What's interesting about situation. Ukraine now is the the pro Russian faction. I mean they used to be. You know Communist parties in Ukraine until very very recently now how you can you there is no communist party they're still a full was formerly a Pro-russian Party Associate Degree College but they weaken significantly and so what's happening in Ukraine now is that basically there is no more inbetween for the Clinton people. You couldn't even see themselves belonging being in Europe they see themselves as you often hear them say fighting the war for Europe meaning a little war against the Russian invasion in eastern Ukraine they see themselves as the as the front lines of Europe. You hear this a lot and they want to have rule of law. They want to have a societies Zaidi's that are open they want to integrate into the EU despite everything that's happening in the right. Now I think the majority opinion still want this because they see the especially as embodying freedom and liberties and that's where Ukraine is going and if you go to Ukraine to key of now and if you had been there ah before two thousand fourteen right now you go there and it feels like Berlin or Stockholm. I mean just a everyone speaks English. It feels very fashionable and hipster Sir Okay Brooklyn or something like that so you can even feel it in in the cultural changes and so the door to Russia has has been shut and so the only path forward now is towards the West yet of course that can't really happen because Russia occupied Crimea and because there's an active if if low-intensity conflict in Ukraine east so with all that his background let's dive into the call so the the the first sort of moment in this transcript of this now infamous phone call between Donald Trump and presidents alinsky. Is this point where trump says. I will say we do a lot for Ukraine. We spend a lot of effort and a lot of time and then he goes on to say you know that the European Union isn't doing enough the the United States has been very very good to Ukraine. I wouldn't say it's reciprocal. Necessarily because things are happening that are not good but the United States has been very good to Ukraine. So what is he talking about their so their president trump is not wrong so after Russia invades Crimea in two thousand fourteen and takes over and then starts to win the NBA's the entire international community this was during the Obama Administration still comes together and tries to implement a common strategy energy to deterring continued Russian aggression and to help you defend himself against Russian military aggression the EU typically does not ah provide military support and aid but they step in eventually significant packages for democracy development. You know various forms of on the ground aid to civil society organizations independent media. They provide some technical assistance I believe that over the course of the last five years since two thousand fourteen in the summer of European support for Ukraine's about fifteen billion is a significant amount of money the United States however thinks to the US Congress which almost unanimously passes legislation for standing together with Ukraine now on a yearly basis authorizes is an appropriate is two hundred fifty million dollars tags specifically for military support this training Ukrainian troops it goes to providing providing defensive and also lethal weapons now as well so the United States is fully committed from a financial perspective to helping Ukraine's military develop up so that they're able to defend themselves against continuing Russian incursion into their territory. The president is not wrong when he says that and so it was alinsky follows up to this and he eh says you know I spoke with Angela Merkel with Emmanuel Macron so the leaders of Germany and France. I told them they're not doing quite as much as they need to be doing. On the issues with the sanctions it turns out that even logically the European Union should be our biggest partner but technically the United States is a much bigger partner zoo. Who is there a grievance here on Ukraine side in terms of how much the European Union is doing or is Alinsky just kind of hamming up for trump. I think we have to reads leads alinsky comments in the context when this call took place I will say that perhaps it wasn't the smartest thing to disparage European allies who have been very engaged and have been providing significant amounts of financial and diplomatic support to Ukraine but so let's get this point is inexperienced diplomat that goes without saying he has no diplomatic experience got Roman experience before getting elected. He's freshly inaugurated the weird the thing about the Ukrainian system that there's a long amount of time the passes between election and inauguration. He just establishes his cabinet after this call takes place at the end of July so he knows that he his main objective on this call is to win over the personal support of the President I'm so that he can hopefully overtime continue to have support from the United States and so I think his objective here is to do what I think a lot roll leaders probably do in these phone calls that we just don't know about which is praise president trump agree with president trump. You know tell him that he's it's the best tell him that America's the greatest. Tell him that you're so thankful for everything exactly what he does. He Polish should've disparage Germany Oranje in France but I think in this context we're talking to the US president a country that is absolutely instrumental in helping your country not be taken over by Russia and you know that you're eighty your military aid the you've been getting from the United States has somehow been delayed late at this point but you don't know why you're in a pretty precarious position where obviously nine states and specifically president trump because a huge amount of leverage and your only objective in this call is to win him over and I think that's exactly what he's trying to do in those comments so he's he's really sort of between a rock and a hard place here absolutely and you know maybe he could have handled that differently but I think we have to understand that exactly in in those terms so's Alinsky Lansky after sort of criticizing Germany and France and the European Union goes on to say were ready to continue to cooperate for next steps specifically were were almost ready to buy more javelin from the United States for defense purposes. What is he talking about there and you also mentioned in this issue of these big aid packages from the United States. How do those connect with this so the javelin cz are an interesting comment because it is actually the trump administration that allows the sale of offensive lethal weapons in that jargon to be sold to Ukraine clean the Obama administration allowed defensive systems but not offensive lethal systems so the the White House approves President Trump signed off on basically allowing weapon sales lethal offensive weapons including javelin that are used in anti tank warfare to be sold all to the Ukrainians and I think he's trying to say there. Is You know look Mr President president trump. We can be a market for you. we're ready to buy more. American made military weapons. we are ready to be a partner for you. we're ready to be not a customer for the US military industrial complex. We're ready to buy more. I think that's exactly what he's doing that comment and then on top of the Javelin. There's also also this big aid package from the Defense Department and the State Department. It's actually I think there's been some indication. The whistleblower complaint that Zilenski may not have known own it was being held up by the president when this call took place but it if you could just tell me what is that aid package and how important is it to Ukraine. And what does it have to do with president trump so as we're talking earlier the United States has been providing two hundred and fifty million are year specifically for military aid which goes to training of Ukrainian troops other ways of helping clean army defend itself against against the Russians actions so that's one piece of aid package and that is part of law it is included in the national defense authorization. Act a yearly basis that the president in has already signed so the president doesn't really seem to have a mandate to say they're going to freeze the congressionally appropriated. There's a whole other aid eight package the the US distributes through all kinds of different agencies like USA ID the US State Department the United States also contributes to international national organizations like the IMF and always c. d. the then give aid to Ukraine offer various civil society domestic programs anything ranging from healthcare scare to supporting journalists to helping them figure out how to do land reforms as a whole slew of staff and it's hard to estimate that but we've seen seen some estimates that was approximately a hundred and forty million in additional aid and so we get into a situation where about four hundred million of basically direct aid both military and non-military is at stake here so going back into the transcript of the call trump them response to Dolinsky the and says I would like you to do is to favor though and he goes on to say than this super vague and confusing language I would like you to find out what happened happened with this whole situation with Ukraine. They say crowd strike. I guess you have one of your wealthy. People the server they say Ukraine has it and he goes on to basically they say he wants to have Attorney General Bill Bar Contacts Alinsky says Alinsky can get to the bottom of it. What on Earth is he talking about here. It's a great question so was fascinating about this. Call is that there's all of these references of the US president just gonNA pulls out of his pocket that I really vague and some so glad we're doing this annotated did spoken the spoke annotation of call so the crowd crowd strike-craft friends as a reference to an American company named crowd strike that I I discovered the Russian hack in the lead up to twenty sixteen elections against the DNC servers and the Clinton campaign and identify the specific Russian Shen actors abt Twenty twenty-nine Cozy Ban fancy bear as there are sometimes known and so I think with the president's referring to there is this conspiracy theory. It is a conspiracy theory that somehow you know this was all some sort of ploy and this was fake and the in fact some information pertaining to the servers on which Hillary Clinton had some of her emails and those missing e mails at trump really WanNa rush define twenty sixteen that that is all in Ukraine and is there any evidence for this none that I'm aware of so Zilinskiene kind of doesn't really take Jake trump up on that which may not be particularly surprising given that there's not really any evidence for it but he goes on to say you know it's very important for us to cooperate with the United States and then he mentions Rudy Giuliani and he says l. personally tell you one of my sisters spoke with Mr Juliana recently. We're we're hoping that he'll be able to travel to Ukraine will meet him so this of course is the president's personal lawyer and trump goes on to say. I would love for you to talk to Giuliani along with attorney general bill bar. What does Giuliani doing in Ukraine so Giuliani of course has been the focus of a lot of reporting reporting over the last few weeks Let's rewind a little bit our timeline so we know that somewhere at the beginning of this year but you're in two thousand nineteen a Giuliani starts to Rana sort of shadow diplomacy effort a with the Ukrainians and here's what we know so in January twenty nineteen gene what's happening in Ukraine. We still have the former incumbent. Petra partially go in power but he's getting to single digits pool ratings already his his prosecutor-general is some new by the name of Flute Sankoh so remember those names let Sankoh is the Prosecutor General at the time partially Co is in power and we we know from recent reporting as well the Giuliani also seem to have had some communications some relationship with the previous prosecutor-general security general named Schalken so shocking is a guy who was known to be incredibly corrupt figure who was actually actually stopping a lot of corruption investigations in Ukraine and he eventually gets fired under a huge amount of political pressure months of political local pressure from the international community including the European Union including the United States in yes including Vice President Joe Biden because we're in two thousand sixteen and so show can finally guess dismiss in two thousand sixteen including by pressure from the United States and the Abomination Joe Biden and he is eventually onto replaced by. Let's angle sank sticks it out for almost three years in the partial administration so okay so twenty nineteen we have with Sankoh partial go and we know that at this time Giuliani starts to reach out to Latino and eventually meat in New York in January of two thousand nineteen they have several follow meetings after that and then we get this really bizarre outcome in March. The seems to come seems is to come directly out of those meetings which is let's Sankoh gives this strange radio interview to the hill a publication in DC has been covered now quite quite extensively in which he says to kind of strange things one he insinuates or lose to the idea that he will. That's the prosecutor general at the time reopen an investigation into some dirty dealings by some Ukrainian officials having to do do the cranes interference than twenty sixteen elections okay that he says that thing then he says one other weird thing which is he makes claims that the US ambassador at the time Marie Ivanovich is in private saying disparaging things about the trump administration and and accuses her of other inappropriate behavior that she's been carrying out so what's interesting about that specific injury. Sankoh gives is that it seems to have emerged from a variety of have different interests is really a confluence of interest between what's happening in Ukraine and the time and what Giuliani seems to want so we know a a lot about what Giuliani wanted because of independent reporting this happened since then we know that he was trying to get to the quote unquote bottom of this idea that Ukraine and somehow interfered in two thousand sixteen elections on behalf of Hillary Clinton that there's some sort of narrative around Ukraine's collusion with Democrats Ray way. We've seen this reflected in the president's tweets however there's also Ukraine component here so the question that we haven't been reporting on a lot is why why does let's send could do this and why does he do this. In March you know what really gets to him right and so what's happened you clean in March of the Ashir is partially because looks like he's going to lose the elections that are coming up in April and Lutsenko is really scared that he's GonNa lose his job because he probably will because he's a a political appointee of the Persian communist nation and so he is seems to be scrambling and very nervous to keep his position at the same time the US ambassador at the time Marie WanNa vege ease increasingly being very critical of Sankoh and the Persian ching-kuo ministration for stalling reforms for not investigating corruption cases for blocking the appropriate investigative authorities. He's of other agencies there were set up specifically to investigate high level corruption and for basically undermining the entire judicial process docking the courts awards to Cetera. There's a lot of bad things happening judicial independence at the time and it looks really bad for Marshenko so think about it. Your incumbent don't you were increasing looks like a losing campaign. You're nervous on top of that you have on your most important partners the United States and the US US ambassador who's in Kiev increasing. You saying these public things you know can hitting you over the head with this corruption hammer right. You guys aren't doing enough you. I need to be doing more and they're really nervous and they see I think the US ambassador as a huge problem for them politically so there's a lot to unpack unpack there so let's let's start with the Victor Shokhin aspect of the story and then sort of move forward in time so shokhin has been kind of shadowy figure in this story he he sort of starts a lot of the movement but it's it's not really clear what's going on with him so just tell me why is it that he is dismissed. Why is it that there's so much pressure on Ukraine from both the European Union I and the United States to get rid of him. Let's a pretty straightforward answer. stroking at the time and there's a huge amount reporting on this this was spring of two thousand sixteen basically stops his office from carrying out corruption investigations and there's a lot of local reporting in Ukraine the he is in fact aiding and abetting corruption at a high level he's someone that is known to be one of these players in Ukraine for a long time there's a huge amount of disapproval of some of his actions and basically the entire reform process gets stalled stole the Ukraine because of him and at one point some of the aid agencies and aid agencies even threatened to hold internationally wished Ukraine depends on a lessees dismissed it gets this bad basically and it takes a long time partially co two to make that call eventually the Ukrainian parliament forces him to resign but it was celebrated as a great thing. This was a great move of the shows the Kenyan government. We'll dismiss corrupt officials so trump an Giuliani have both alleged that Shokhin was dismissed because he was looking looking into this company Ukrainian Gas Company in Columbus MMA that Hunter Biden was on the board of and that Joe Biden somehow a pulled strings to push shokhin out because he was trying to shield Hunter Biden from scrutiny so what is Burr is my and what hundred Biden's involvement in it so brisbane is a private you cleaning gas company. that is owned by man by the name of Jeff Ski who is a former minister of the ecology in Ukraine and there have been some questions as to whether he used his political position when he was part of the government to basically allow his company privilege which access to licenses so there is there has been a lot questions whether it was a corrupt element to the acquiring those licenses by charisma because the owners. Let's have ski had a government post of the time the obviously putting privileged position dispersals licenses so there there wasn't investigation then restoration when was closed and there was even a lawsuit a believe those calls in two thousand seventeen in a British court against reason as well there was also closed without any a conclusion for a lack of evidence so this case is pretty much been dead shocking not only didn't want onto reopen the case he was actively trying to let it die right so he could have potentially reopened the case but he had no interest in doing so because sugar had no interest in investigating corruption 'cause everything in Ukraine when it comes to these high level corrupt business practices are entangled some meaning that if you investigate one allegoric like somebody likes the Chessy you never really touch someone else and then never really might touch. You are people that are close to you. and you of course don't want to do that so Shukan can wasn't fact not opening investigation. There was no active investigation to Burris Ma and in fact he was leading it just sort of linger are and sit and there was no desire and no interest on his part in opening this investigation at all so in fact Vice President Biden in being part of broad international effort to get shook into Smith's one could say was acting directly against his sons potential tential financial interests as a member of Burris Mus board because the idea was he wants shokhin out because he's not pursuing corruption cases of which this case could have been one on the breeze monkeys could have been one and we went on his prosecutor in there who's going to actually pursue these cases and potentially open ones that weren't properly investigated so so in fact Joe Biden was advocating at the time for more honest replacement to Shokhin who would have actually potentially intentionally been a detriment to his own sons board membership umbrella so Joe Biden acting against you could say hundred Biden's interests in that moment so after Shukan is dismissed the new prosecutor-general Lutsenko comes in so does he take any action regarding Bruinsma or the Biden's no unfortunately after shrugging. This dismissed the person who replaces him. Let's think was not much better than shocking himself. You could could just say that. He's a bit more politically savvy so he manages to stick it out for a longer period of time but he's also interested in pursuing corruption cases he we also. Let's things linger tries to undermine the authority of the anti-corruption investigator which is independent agency he tries to undermine the ability ability of some of the National Interruption Bureau which is tasked with investigating high levels of corruption as well and then recommending cases were prosper continue prosecution by the General Prosecutor's Office he tries to undermine their authorities in capabilities as well salute. Cinco basically acts in a more savvy way. Hey very similar to shock in he is just as corrupt he's not interested in touching any of these oligarchy networks and relationships jobs he's just seems too much more interested in saving his own skin from the long-term when let Sankoh speaks to the hill one of the things he says is that the US ambassador Marie Ivanovich has given him this list of people not to prosecute the implication is kind of that this this is the ambassador trying to shield people from political scrutiny he later than that back and says that she didn't actually actually give that to him and in fact he asked for that from her but walk me through the interactions between Lit Sankoh and and the ambassador here he's trying to present himself there as he's sort of the honest dealer and she's the corrupt dealer but what is that relationship actually like it's really the hard to know but what we do know is that the US ambassador where you want of the time you know. She is doing her job right. The United States is not in the business his of giving giving any financial aid to countries where it's going to be misspent because of corruption and skimming off the top and things like that the judiciary and specifically the office of the prosecutor general becomes kind of a hot issue and Ukraine for years. It has been a hot issue for years because this this is the office is supposed to pursue these cases and they are not and at the time. I don't WanNa get too much in the weeds. There are also other legal things that happened in Ukraine gene the don Le Good for Ukraine's fight with corruption and Marie Ivanovich the US ambassador goes on the record and makes a gives a public speech on on March fifth which is just about two weeks before let's Cinco publishes this interview with the hill where she publicly admonishes amish is Ukraine's record on corruption and publicly talks about the inadequacy of the rule of law and the inability of the prosecutor general pursue abuse cases so at the time. There's a lot of convoluted behavior here you know. I don't know how many times will send commit with ambassador him with her at all if they had conversations with the US embassy sent a formal letter to the prosecutor general which is included in that hill interview he lets Cinco publishes it where the the talk about why certain aid that is seems like Lasantha wonderful himself cannot go to him and so it's pretty convoluted convoluted abutting the big point and take away without getting too into the weeds of this is that with Sankoh seems to see the US ambassador as sort of blocking locking his ability to maintain zone position at potentially having a negative effect on the reelection chances of Petropars Shaneco who who appointed Lewis Sankoh in the first place and so I think for a long time Sankoh has an to a certain extent have been trying to get rid of this ambassador because they don't like the she sort of speaking the truth and criticizing them about their record on corruption and N. reforms and what ends up happening to amount of edge so there is a bit of missing link here. Will we know is after this. Hill interview is published published it quickly gets picked up by Sean Hannity then it gets tweeted by Don Jr. then he gets to by the president so there's a huge ooh the media storm the emerges out of this relatively unknown publication called the hill. Maybe known to some folks in DC. It's not a national channel nationally known outlet but gets spun up by all of these other media actress who are in the trump orbit and then the ambassador acid a few months later is dismissed and so she leaves for posted. May she was supposed to stay through the end of the year and was going to retire in fact as far as we know and she's just pushed out very very quickly after that the missing link here is we don't actually know and so between March march and May when she leaves who made that call we assume it was the secretary of state a Mike Pompeo but we don't really know what happened in those two months the led to her her dismissal so after trump tells alinsky that he wants him to look into a hunter Biden and Joe Biden Zilenski is response is maybe not what one would want it to be. He responds saying we've won the majority in parliament so the next Prosecutor General Enron will be one hundred percent my person here. She will look into the situation specifically to the company. You mentioned presumably talking about Burris mother. How how does that read to you. Is that Zilenski sort of trying to get trump off his back. Is. He really making a promise that he's going to lean on the new prosecutor-general to look into the issue. What is he doing there. What's fascinating before answer. That question is that. Let's CINCO does end ended up being pushed out after a person could loses the election and Zilenski in July on July twenty five which is when the call would trump poppins. doesn't yet half his cabinet approved that happens just basically a month later and so. I think was trying to tell trump is just it's just a Suede Jim and say look you know. I don't have my guy there yet but when I have my guy in that position yes Mr President. We will look into this. What's amazing amazing. Is that Cinco himself after he no longer holds the job of Prosecutor General in May give an interview to Bloomberg where he says Oh you know there was no investigation and in fact there was no wrongdoing found by one hundred minor Joe Biden any of the Biden's no violations of the law so basically it sounds like also promised to open investigation to appease which Giuliani wanted from him probably all those meetings and what trump is not referring to in this phone phone call was Alinsky but doesn't actually do anything he just says it. Yes I'll re-open investigation. Help me give her the embassador. Reopen the investigation as it's not Zielinski. He's just you know appeasing trump again. Maybe he shouldn't have said that because it doesn't look good but it sounds like he's just appeasing trump and saying look MR president. I'll I'll try to be helpful here. Once I have my own guide there so just a recap at this point what's happened in this conversation is that they're having having a congratulatory phone. Call Zilenski asks for more weapons to fight this war with Russia in the east president trump immediately idiot. Lee says I'd like you to do us a favor. I want you to investigate this crowds. DRE CONSPIRACY THERE A. I want you to investigate the Biden's and then Zielinski kind of says yes yes. We'll look into it from the Ukrainian perspective from Zilenski perspective. Is this a shakedown on trump's part. It's really hard to know because one this is not an actual transcript of the call. These are the no takers notes so one. We don't know if this were begum to what extent it is. We also don't know if there are parts that were not included in notes which would not be atypical often. No takers unqoute every single element of the conversation so it's really hard to say what the feel of the actual phone call was of course reading these notes. I think if I was Alinsky I I would just be stunned and shocked and not know what to say right when you have the US president and basically tickly asking you to do something again in the context of the huge lovers the United States has over Ukraine of the fact. This is a new president who doesn't doesn't really know what he's doing. Yeah meetings Lonski who doesn't have his cabinet appointed again. WHO's in a pretty weak position still relatively speaking? He's certainly in a weak position vis-a-vis the US President the more positive reading of that comment is the Dolinsky will just say anything. Trump wants to stay in this conversation right does he experience it as shakedown. It's hard to know of course then in the press conference. Zilenski trump give together around the UN General Assembly in New York. zones keep very clearly says. I wasn't pressure. There was no pressure but if you look at his face during the entire press conference he looks absolutely terrified is the face of someone who's just wants to say. Just this is normal. All this is wrong. We'll just pretend everything's normal and it's not right so it's hard to know. I think the more positive reading of this of his behavior is that he is completely stunned and lost and confused and has been given the advice to just agree with everything trump says and try to flatter him which he does later down on the call. He sort of says that he's you know he'd he mentions he stayed in trump tower the last time he was in New York which we can talk another time out the constitutional dimensions of that and whether it's a violation of the emoluments clause but it does seem I'm like a pretty transparent attempts to flatter trump so going back to the press conference that you mentioned another things. Alinsky says there that's interesting as he makes this comment essentially along the lines of I'm paraphrasing here but I want to stay out of this. I don't want anything to do with this. I don't want to interfere in a US election and so from his perspective. Is this something that he's just trying to kind of fade into the background and he doesn't want anything to do with Damascus. strategy seems to have been exactly that we want to stay out of US domestic politics. We don't have anything to do with this. There was an incident back in May when Dan Giuliani said that he had a trip planned to meet with the new president elect presents Lonski at the time and his team and the he cancelled that trip last minute our understanding understanding is that the team didn't respond in a positive way to Giuliani's visit at the time which was a smart thing to do you know so. I think the Korean perspective it's it's like just we just want to mind our own business. You know we have a war to fight. We have a lot of things need to get done and we need you support so that's his objected this Lonski subjective and do the extent to which you can stay out as far as you possibly can from all the fires burning in the United States. It's I think is the smart thing to do so. How is this being reported on within Ukraine. How is it playing within Ukraine. We've obviously obviously it's been tearing up the US media but I've much less of a sense of what the read within the country is. What's interesting is is that it hasn't really been getting a lot of coverage in Ukrainian media meaning what's happening in the US and this phone call and and the kind of who plots 'cause here I mean it's led to an impeachment inquiry by the US House of Representatives but Ukrainian journalists really haven't been covering in this and I think on the one hand it's just confusion as to what is going on than people lost? They don't know how to cover it. they don't know what it means. I think they're uh-huh underestimate the potential repercussions of what this means potentially for Ukraine down the line does a question of whether the Zilenski team himself understands what this could mean for Ukraine down the line terms of US policy in continuous support. I think that's the much bigger question here to me. So so what's interesting. Is that the Ukrainian media I mean. This has not been the front pages of every single. Ukrainian paper is getting some reporting but certainly not to the extent to which is being covered the United States and when you say there's a underestimation of what the repercussions might be. What do you mean by that so if if you wind a little bit twenty sixteen when President Trump was running for office obviously the big fear then given everything he was saying about you oh wanting to be better friends Russia and loving Putin all these kinds of things need those of us working on Ukraine and Russia really nervous because it seemed like what trump really wanted was some sort of grand bargain with the Kremlin and of course the first victim of that would be Ukraine a meeting the Kremlin Ukraine remains critically important from the perspective National Identity for the perspective Strategic Objectives Our Ukraine this place just geographically so Ukraine really really matters a lot to Russia and the concern was because the US has been supporting cream a military it has been the major supporter of Ukraine's continued military ability to defend against Russian incursions that trump Abu doesn't really care about Ukraine is going to use a handshake deal with Putin and through granted the boss meaning cut off support an aid meeting cut off diplomatic support Ukraine Krinos well and so now fast forward to three years later in two thousand nineteen and we're in a situation where suddenly support for Ukraine Green. US support for Ukraine is being frozen is being held so you have people close to the US president led by Giuliani weaving these conspiracy spiracy theories trying to connect dos don connecting one dot being Hunter Biden embarrassments one data point that somehow ties Ukraine to the Democrats and the other point being of course that Paul Manafort who is now in jail is in jail because of a lot of evidence those uncovered by his activities in Ukraine just another data point these are not connected to each other and the don't fit into the broader narrative of Ukraine crowds collusion but that's of course was being spun by people close to the president and so now that fear that Ukraine was going to be a victim of some sort of grand bargain of some kind is once again real it feels much more real because of what we've seen in this temporary aid freeze because we're we're seeing now in terms of rhetoric and the political whole narrative the Giuliani's weaving in the president is supporting and so I think the broader repercussions here that I hope you are thinking about and I hope everyone is thinking about is whether this political spin and these conspiracy theories about Ukraine involvement twenty sixteen gene and some collusion with the Democratic Party and all these various ways will undermine support for Ukraine by the Republican Party and was interesting is as the prior twenty sixteen the Republican Party have been hawks and Russia as a result of his supporters of Ukraine and since twenty sixteen the Democrats Vasa Become Hawks are Russia are very supportive of Ukraine but we've had bipartisan support for Ukraine since Russian invasion of Crimea and my concern learn is that because of the political spin now that is completely unfounded the we're going to have some sort of wavering of of that general support of that consensus that Ukraine does matter for the US national security interests so Ukraine sort of risks becoming a casualty essentially essentially in this spin effort by the White House that is the fear and the anxiety that many of us are living with yes so on that cheerful note. Let's end it there. Thanks so much for coming in things. Quinta the love your podcast is produced in cooperation with the Brookings Institution Russian. Thanks this week to Alina Cova. Please share the love her podcasting give us a five star review and I tunes you can purchase Leifer t shirts hats mugs and more at the law fair store DOT COM. The podcast is edited by Jen Potter Hollow. Your Audio Engineer Jacob Shoals are music is performed by Sophia the again and as always thanks for listening

Ukraine Ukraine President Trump United States President Vice President Biden president Joe Biden Zilenski Alinsky Lansky prosecutor Soviet Union Ukraine Crimea Rudy Giuliani Strategic Objectives Our Ukrai Mr President European Union West Lewis Sankoh Cinco Hillary Clinton
Ukraine

Trump, Inc.

34:10 min | 1 year ago

Ukraine

"Trump ink is supported by the showtime documentary series the circus go beyond the headlines of behind the spin with a non-partisan examination of American politics in the age of trump that you just I can't get anywhere else. Don't miss new episodes of the circus every Sunday at eight pm only on showtime okay so should I read it. I semantic peace and Dateline Kiev Wednesday September twenty fifth just after five PM local time I'm at the offices of the not for profit anti-corruption Action Center and tech and with Doria Color Nuke anteks co founder and executive director the White House has just released a transcript detailed notes of a call between president trump and Ukrainian president volodin Amir's Alinsky hamsters. You're giving a call to have attorney John. Call and we'll get to the bottom said on that. Call trump asks ask Dolinsky to quote do us a favor investigate. His political rival Joe Biden with a Bright Orange beanbag chair and a staff of mostly young people anti has the feel of a small startup everyone here not just Aria is furiously digesting the document so that isn't it okay for the president of the United States to have attorney general of the United States to call the president of Ukraine to discuss investigation investigation. Is that okay. I'm not a lawyer but I I believe you are a lawyer. It is actually very astonishing to me to see that something like that happening in the United States from which we are trying to learn how to make democracy so I'm embarrassed embarrassed for the United States. I think yes I'm embarrassed for the United States. I'm also endorsed for for Ukraine. Well Presidents Alinsky. I understand that he was in very tough position because it's like you're a little guy talking to superpower and your country depends on this superpower and Diaz soldiers who are dying every day in war with Russia can stop dying if there will be proper support from the United States if you Google Darya colony one of the first images that comes up is a woman holding a bullhorn surrounded by police. Her T shirt reads fuck corruption today today. She's wearing business attire. It is strange because we could expect something like that happening. In very authoritarian countries like Russia yeah but not from the country which is a role model for us throughout our hour long conversation Callan yoke maintains the state of outraged disbelief this belief did you ever think that Ukraine would be at the center of an impeachment proceeding against an American President I would never imagine that hello and welcome to trump inc a podcast from WNYC and PROPUBLICA that digs deep into into the business of the trump administration. I'm Andrea Bernstein in New York. Ilya Marritz is in Ukraine's capital. Kiev and you'll be hearing a lot more from him in this episode a little about how Ilia happened to be in Kiev right now how for over a year trumping crew has been talking about Ukraine the role it plays for trump and the people around him he's taken money from Ukrainian oligarchs. His former campaign manager Paul manafort worked there for a decade and went to prison because of his work there Michael Cohen has ties to the country and trump's personal attorney. Rudy Giuliani has been making appearances in Ukraine for over a decade. We kept asking ourselves Walleye. What is it about Ukraine so ILIAP Linda TRIPP months ago and as it turned out arrived right after we learned that Ukraine was the country in the mysterious whistleblower report as the story was breaking wide open billion landed ended in Kiev so this is so strange somewhere here for us us. He went there to follow a trail of corruption that started with President Trump's campaign chief Paul manafort and led to president trump's personal personal attorney Rudy Giuliani. Don't see anywhere our newspapers. Nobody's reading them not selling before we begin a note. DONALD TRUMP RUDY GIULIANI END Ukrainian politicians and prosecutors can hollow out the meaning of the words stay use corruption prosecutor cover up facts politicians in Ukraine routinely used prosecutions not as fact-finding missions but as bludgeons to destroy opponents opponents like Je Clinics Group Antioch. It's an anti-corruption. Group supported by the European Union Union Rudy Giuliani mentioned and tack in an interview interview with Chris Cuomo on CNN in September that went viral Giovanni always I asked about Joe Biden is to get to the bottom of how it was that would Sankoh who was appointed right dismissed the case against anti profit called anti or whatever the hand was anti Kolenovic told Ilia that her group his being attacked because it's fighting corruption the reason for that is that we are actually exposing corruption schemes in Ukraine. We are exposing also Western enablers of Ukrainian KLEPTOCRATS. We're painting the S for many powerful people here but they come back has a warning for us about the way her democracy works and the direction ours is heading in well fingers crossed for American political system mm-hmm. I hope that it will not repeat mistakes Ukraine. Tell me what those mistakes are. One President Dictates prosecutor-general the general to investigate it is a big mistake. It shouldn't happen in real democracy today on trump inc how power is brought to bear on investigations into corruption in Ukraine and the United States and the tools we have to fight corruption are themselves being corrupted in the summer of twenty eighteen eighteen. The Muller investigation was bearing down Rudy Giuliani. The president's personal lawyer began talking about putting out a quote counter report that never materialized materialized. What did happen we know from the whistle blower report is that Rudy Giuliani began to reach out to current and former Ukrainian prosecutors in late twenty eighteen Giuliani was developing a counter narrative to muller arguing it was Ukraine that interfered with the two thousand sixteen election on behalf of Hillary Clinton while he was at it? Giuliani began encouraging Ukrainians to investigate Joe Biden and they seem game in the middle of this Attorney General William Bar released his summary of the Muller reports followed by the report itself days after that a new Ukrainian President Senate won the election in a landslide below. Mir Is Alinsky a few months later trump short-circuited short-circuited the normal process and personally ordered a hold on military aid to Ukraine and then one day after special counsel Robert Mueller testified before Congress trump got on the phone with presidents Alinsky. That's when he asked for that favor looking into the Biden's in September we all learned the whistle so blower complaint then Nancy Pelosi announced an impeachment inquiry than we saw the documentation of that trump is alinsky phone call and then we read the complaint then when it's now there's one more thing about Zilenski. You should know before he became. US US President Donald Trump was famous from TV same deal with the new Ukrainian leader Vladimir. He started a popular TV show about a history teacher. Who's WHO's anti-corruption rant goes viral and propels him to the presidency. It's called servants of the people I would imagine if you tell me a year Arrigo that you know in a year a comedian from serve until the people will become the president of Ukraine TV TV show about a an average guy who accidentally becomes president yeah so in this device short there was an accident history teacher suddenly become the president of Ukraine and then the actor in this show actually Lansky became the president of Ukraine with the same and brands that are until the people so let's real life. Political Party is also called Servant of the people. Here's a clip from the show. It's the moment wins. The landscape character learns he's. One editon debris water good morning Mr President we are going to be talking about our TV president and his TV lawyer Rudy the Giuliani but for that story to make sense. We need to start a little earlier in the time line after communism collapsed and the Soviet Union state-owned properties like pipelines and factories were put in private hands. Everyone was supposed to benefit instead a small number of businessmen businessmen hoarded assets and became the oligarchs their fortunes depended and still depends on keeping control of Ukraine's natural resources and building monopolies and working the government. This is how how deep is this three hundred seventy. Thus incredible one big prize for the oligarchs was the largest steel mill an iron mine in northern Ukraine in a town called Krivi re. It's an overnight train ride from one machine turns solid or into glowing liquid metal at a temperature of twenty eight hundred degrees Fahrenheit then it's lifted into a giant cauldron and poured into steel bars. This is very frightening. This place is a good example of how a privatization can go wrong in two thousand four. The factory was awarded at auction not to the highest bidder a multinational company but to to Ukrainian businessman who put in a bid of just half as much money. One of them happened to be the son in law of the president. It's not like Ukrainians. Were okay with this. The sweetheart deal for the steel plant caused so much outrage it was later voided and reversed in two thousand five mill was put up for auction again in this time an international steel giant offered the most and won the oligarchs were unhappy they wanted control all of the natural resources and to get that they had to control the government and they on just the man to help them do it. A man with decades of experience supporting corrupt upped leaders across the globe Paul Manafort at at the time two thousand five eighty seven percent of Ukrainians were against the oligarchs candidate Viktor Yanukovych Manafort. Turn that that around there's a term people hear us for Manafort's profession Poli no-look political technologists Manafort did polling he tested messages he got a Kovic previously spoke coarsely and had assault and robbery convictions in his past to where a good suit they get a good haircut and speak Ukrainian because it was eastern Ukraine. He spoke Russian in two thousand ten. The oligarchs man won the presidency. Ah Paul Manafort went to work for the new leader he secretly lobbied the US government. Yennin Kovic locked up a political opponent. Then manafort hired a law firm thereto bogus report justifying her prosecution. All the while Yanukovych was stealing massive massive amounts of money from the Ukrainian people. There's a memo a manafort associate road during this period it said the number of people who admit they are having difficulty Coltie feeding their family throughout Ukraine. Today is stunning book. The people protested in February Twenty Fourteen Ukrainians ends overthrew Yanukovych. He fled by helicopter to Russia. That's when Ukrainians discovered Yanukovych is other worldly palace the House the corruption built now. It's a museum I just want to note we have left the city of Kiev and he has that's the main line road to imagine and when the road from Kiev to measure here you passes through a tangle of high-rise housing estates and shopping plazas. My Guide is Anestachio Laszlo so a tour guide based in Kia. It was really pissing people off because they were getting late and learned English as a teenager in Alaska. That's the funny Johny part. Everyone is laughing like Alaska really stunning Annetta states but while it is she also goes by Stacey really complicated to pronounce the foreigners so they called me stacy or you became Stacey in Alaska Horse. Of course the grounds of the estate are vast. There's a nine hole golf course a huge garage for Yanukovych is vintage cars and a laboratory. Tori where Lonzo says the president's food was tested to make sure it wasn't poisoned after Yanukovych fled measure here in two thousand fourteen protesters and journalists found found a trove of his financial documents dumped in the water. They drive them off in the sauna the centerpiece of this verse cy his Yanukovych's Mansion. I ask disclose. Oh if Paul Manafort has ever been here. She doesn't know and tells me I can ask the man who manages the House but she says I should divide whatever he tells me in two. I really liked that Ukrainian expression. You can divide that into that. What you say yeah yeah divided into it means like some of it can be true but some of it not but which part is true or not you know the interior walls here look like the inside of a log cabin? Almost everything else is pure opulence. What's the Sports Complex Helipad the be floating restaurant. It looks like a abode stuffed lion. Oh that is if you care about cats hats that is so depressing. Oh It's like an oxygen chamber and this is some kind of water massage so it's still this table can cost from fifty to one hundred thousand euros is usually gross in the natural conditions in the underground caves somewhere but guy wanted assault gave here on his house. Oh my God look at this coat of armor. The last known that will be the door. We'll get on it can save people get out like in silence. At the beginning they got excited and then as a result of okay. Eh People do look a little stunned as they merge into the sunshine by the summer of two thousand sixteen. ECKSTEEN MANAFORT had a new GIG after Yanukovych. He went to work running. Donald Trump's campaign. Here's an interview metaphor did in the summer of two thousand sixteen with CBS News so to be clear. Mr Trump has no financial relationships with any Russian oligarchs. That's what he said. That's what I said. That's obviously look our position. As manafort was the GO-TO for campaign interviews then in August of two thousand sixteen a a story broke in the New York Times. It said Manafort was paid. Twelve point seven million dollars off the books payments from Yanukovych is political party accounts of these payments turned up in a so-called lack ledger. We'll be right right back more from your podcast APP Graduate Pocket Cath Your Free One stop shop for podcast listening search and discovery the beautifully Italy designed APP gives you more control and makes it easier to discover and Organiz podcasts was powerful tools to customize listening here all your favorite shows podcasts dot com or find us in the apple APP or Google play stores. We're back three years after the Black Ledger was made public donald trump and Rudy Giuliani Aruna campaign to question its origins and thus vindicate there since convicted Victim Colleague Manafort and to smear their opponents and undermine the US special prosecutor Robert Mueller to do that. Giuliani spoke spoke to three current and former Ukrainian prosecutors victor shokhin yearly Cinco and Nikki so remember those names Shokhin the Cinco Kalinski. I mean I noticed how cool Ilya met with two journalists Aubrey Belford and Tanya John Yakuza River they've been reporting on who Giuliani has been working within Ukraine and how he got connected with the current and former prosecutors cheaters and also what it means to be a prosecutor in Ukraine. How did you get started working together on this story so the way these started. Is You know I've been based in care for just over a year. I'm an investigative journalist. This is Opera Belfort and I read the story in the hill by John. Solomon who is a foam may pay reporter and basically laid out this scandal where Joe Biden pressured Ukraine to fire chief prosecutor because was he was investigating company where his son hunter served on the board and I thought wow this looks like a real scandal. I'm going to investigate it and my investigation lawsuit for about about thirty minutes because the story just fell apart it soon became pretty apparent that the guy that got fired Victor Shokhin basically everyone unwanted implied the State Department wanted him fide. European countries wanted to fly the IMF wanting fired Ukrainian anti corruption activists one in five people protesting on the streets wanted wanted fired and Joe Biden put pressure onto getting fired but to say that he was an anti corruption fighter is kind of like saying that Danny Devito won the silver medal for rhythmic gymnastics. It's absurd on its face. This guy was fired for being massively corrupt and for protecting cropped people but when I read it you know two things popped into mind which was firstly this story doesn't check out and secondly that this story seems uh-huh ideally calibrated for US politics down to a t and then Giuliani goes on in cable news and he says it he says I'm working on this yeah. I'm and I feel sorry about his involvement in the Ukraine thing. Let me tell you my interest in that. I got information about three or four months ago that a lot of the Juliana was working with live Parnell and eager fruman two men who emigrated from the Soviet Union now live in Florida aw Parnasse has worked in real estate stocks consumer electronics with history of business disputes in two thousand seventeen. He was ordered by a federal judge to to pay half a million dollars to investors in a movie called anatomy of an assassin to date. He hasn't paid it. He has said he's done nothing wrong. In business or politics six from the other businessman has an expert operation owns hotels and nightclubs. He has a Beach Club in Odessa. Sir On the Black Sea called Mafia rave recently partisan fruman started giving hundreds of thousands of dollars to Republican causes. Your donations nations to a Republican Super Pac twenty eighteen are the subject of a complaint before the Federal Election Commission it was Parnasse and fruman who connected Giuliani money with his sources in Ukraine those prosecutors we mentioned we wear the initiative came from what we do know. Is that in full of lost last year. Parnassus and Fruman put Giuliani in touch with the General Prosecutor Schalken and after that put Giuliani in touch and to meet with shocking success a year at Sankoh. Can you talk about like what the General Prosecutor cuter is and does in Ukraine like a rough equivalent of our attorney general in the United States Tanya Khasarova equivalent with the Yeah William Barr position turn general position in us. I think the thing with the prosecutors in in Ukraine prosecutors cuties in Ukraine often act like a protection racket prosecutors routinely will bring falsified or drummed up cases against people and then drop them for money prosecutors will also be used by people with political interests be they politicians or Allah guards in order to smear people and we learn as journalists pretty early on to Norwich prosecutors. You can trust which ones are frankly cereal lies this and the guys that Giuliani is relying on have very bad reputations. Can you give me any examples well. I mean Shokhin broken was dismissed by parliament after a massive public outcry because he was basically strangling anti corruption efforts here. Lukashenko is similarly reviled by the public his successor. I mean he's an ex prosecutors well but also also you never listen journal. Prosecutor which never had any proper education you know he had he's not a lawyer. He's not a lawyer politician who just got into office the Sankoh has been widely accused of slow walking corruption cases and of cooking cases against against innocent parties who are out of favor with Ukraine's money class. He denies this Giuliani's third prosecutors so us his the special anti-corruption prosecutor Khuda now's our holy Nikki who has himself being investigated for basically yeah collaborating collaborating with people under investigation corruption telling them what the investigation has what to anticipate Kolonaki was recorded tipping off suspects ahead of searches they all told Giuliani spoke with these current and former prosecutor risk Sankoh Kalaniiki Shokhin about a dozen times Giuliani he collected the information they gave him about trump's political opponents and passed it along widely discredited though it was to the American president during one of Giuliani's meetings in New York Times reports. Giuliani actually got trump on the phone. We reached out to the White House. Giuliani need three Ukrainian prosecutors. Haas and fruman the only one who commented Lukashenko who said without elaboration that the whistle blowers allegations about about him are false. Giuliani has been subpoenaed by the House Oversight Committee among the Association's they are examining Parnasse Fruman crewmen that three prosecutors and Giuliani's business partners in Ukraine there was someone trying to focused attention on the corruption of Ukrainian prosecutors the American ambassador to Ukraine Marie Ivanovich. She called for Kalinski to be fired. She I said nobody who has been recorded coaching suspects on how to avoid corruption charges can be trusted to prosecute those very same cases aces. He said the recordings were out of context in. May trump abruptly recalled Ivanovich there there is now no US ambassador to Ukraine this brings us to the central subject of Giuliani's Janis campaign. It's the idea that the Democrats and some Ukrainians interfered in the twenty sixteen election in Hillary Clinton's favor they did this in Giuliani's Janis version of events by forging a document. The so-called Black Ledger that showed secret payments from Yanukovych's party to Paul Manafort. Remember Manafort is serving prison time because of the trail of corruption Robert Muller uncovered beginning with those payments he took from Yanukovych which bank fraud tax fraud money laundering conspiracy against the United States but Guiliani says the black ledger is a fake nick. Here's Giuliani a May twenty nineteen interview on Fox News pointing a finger at a man named Saturday this Kinko. He's not the prosecutor Lukashenko. Their names are similar found to be involved in assisting the Democrats with the two thousand sixteen election gentleman. I'll give you his name filming only by the name of your just let me let me finish a gentleman by the name of La Shaneco. Yes who supplied a black book that was found to be fraudulent solent never used because it was a fraudulent incriminating statement. That was totally untrue. Of course it's not fraud. It's real document men and of course I'm not enemy of American government. I know intervened interfered in American elections in Kiev. I spoke to the man man who helped to bring the black ledger to light Sergei Chanko. He's an investigative. Journalist and former member of parliament met him in a cafe in a hip part of the city. It is part of conspiracy credit by Giuliani conspiracy theory which is not based on relevance in real information. Because Blake Ledger Joe went through expertise in Ukraine and expect is proved that it's real document and signatures of people sign of this book real but to construct conspiracy theory Giuliani was looking for some information which can mainly be responsible and accused decided to spin this. It's fake fake pleasure and so on a string is extremely tall with thick framed glasses. He turns forty next year. Let's check. Oh says to promote remote his theory. Rudy Giuliani seized on the fact that an administrative court found less ching-kuo acted illegally in Publicizing the Black Ledger Giuliani ignored nor the fact that the ruling was overturned on appeal bill stopped the decision in July this year but it did not stop Giuliani and he continued saying Dan this fraud by casting doubt on the Black Ledger Rudy Giuliani is trying to rewrite history. Paul manafort in Rudy's telling is transformed from a political Michael technologist who profited from corrupt system and cheated on his taxes into the victim of a sinister anti-trump plot a plot that eventually led to Robert Muller's colors investigation but for Ukrainians Manafort's role even in the shadows can't be erased. Check our calls something that happened a dozen years ago as a reporter in Switzerland to cover the corrupt politician Viktor Yanukovych Paul Manafort was there. Let's check. Oh made contact does that time. Prime Minister Yanukovych traveled to Davos in Switzerland Engine World Economic Forum and Manafort came to listen personally and he appeared together with Ukrainian Sekondi Annetta Smith who hire it Manafort Manafort Akhmetov is the patron who I engaged Paul manafort services all those years ago after he lost control of the Steel Plant and I came to Manafort with the question. May you record into with me. She said no interview at all and it's my friends. What did you know about Paul Manafort at the time. It was not a secret that he works for Yanukovych a huge mysterious person doing during ten years. He made no interview at all zero but everybody was away. He walks closure. If Paul Manafort's actions are obscured in America if he's seen as a victim cheng-kuo says that will have a chilling effect on the people who are pushing to make Ukraine more democratic open and fair whistle blowers or anti corruption activists you ready to fight against the system to provide this information now will remember what happened with people like me are like and and talk leader who under pressure for the last four years and they will decides twice or triple three should they start this anti corruption of DVD or it's better to keep silence to keep is blind not to make this noise about corruption and just look of criminal problem when we started our interview the Shinco rubbing his eyes and glancing at his phone. He's been doing back to back news interviews for for days. Suddenly it seems the world is interested in what he has to say about graft disinformation foamy. It's another evidence that corruption is not just Ukrainian problem but it's global problem happened everywhere in the world and sometimes corruption. It's like a butterfly fly effect. The sultan's happened in Ukraine and to namath happened in us. Let's check. Oh has offered to testify before Congress about about his experience with the Black Ledger and the disinformation campaign we live in a time of abundant information. Aubrey Belford the reporter we spoke with earlier says Giuliani's Ukrainian partners have been adept opt at mixing truth with falsehood. The result is facts. That are not really factual. We can say that these claims they have been pushed by Ukrainian prosecutors with Americans incorrect they mix truth and falsehood they are disinformation and Americans winds have picked it up and run with them. Whether this is a disinformation campaign that was all designed ten exactly as it has. I think is a little bit farfetched but what it does show is that this kind of stuff is currency is very part and currency and I mean it worked. They wanted wanted to create a splash with this and they have what's it like living in a place where nobody knows what's true. Well I mean it's like living in the United States This is a part of the world where disinformation is really like part of life and it's being exported to the United States and you know I mean you guys are GonNa know what it's like soon enough. This episode was produced by Catherine Sullivan and Alice Wild. Make Kramer is the executive producer of trump inc.. The editors are Erica Manzke Nick Vacherin Robin Fields. The engineer is jared Paul Special. Thanks this episode to Dora Homework. Home Family Ogilvy no troy a two Lane Lydia. Tom Cue the staff at Arcelormittal Krivi Reek on a SASKIA Stacey Lonzo. Thanks also jonky Emily Mann Urva Ganga and Emily Emily Poteen and thank you to Propublica Katie's of asking Stephen Engelberg is the editor in chief of PROPUBLICA. The original music is by Hannah's round. Uh Uh.

Rudy Giuliani Ukraine United States President Trump Viktor Yanukovych Manafort Prime Minister Yanukovych Joe Biden president Kiev President prosecutor trump inc Paul Manafort attorney Robert Muller Alinsky SASKIA Stacey Lonzo DONALD TRUMP White House Yanukovych
Why Military Assistance for Ukraine Matters

The Daily

25:42 min | 11 months ago

Why Military Assistance for Ukraine Matters

"Hi I'm CEO Belgium. I make the daily you might know my name from the credit. You might know what more like Theo. Welcome because that's how Michael says it. A lot of people title ask us. How can we help you make what you make? We love it so much. We can't live without it and it's actually really simple. What you can do is you can become a subscriber to the New York Times? That's it's the fastest easiest best way to keep the daily going. Did you like Michael and freshness. We'll be right back from the New York. Times unlikable borrow the daily today at the heart of the impeachment inquiry was a threat to withhold. US military assistance from Ukraine. Why that assistance had been and so important to Ukraine and to the United States in the first place? It's Monday overlap. Were Ukraine means frontier or Borderland. This was a frontier between two competing. Empires it's been a country. Torn between East and West between Western Europe and Russia took always for most of the twentieth century. Russia had went out and Ukraine was part of the Soviet Union on at today today until August. Twenty four thousand nine hundred ninety one. When Ukraine took a step toward the West and already emotional national week ended today as the people of Ukraine the new beginning becoming the first public to break away from the Kremlin? It was the culmination of a long struggle for independence. After years of hardship under Soviet rule Ukraine was now an independent state. This is one of the turning points in history the vote for independence of Ukraine rain is in fact one of those momentous events that is going to change the rest of history. It's the end of the Russian empire so so wants Ukraine becomes an independent country and it can have its own international relations with the rest of the world. What do those relationships start to look like the key issue for Ukraine the defined both its foreign and domestic policy in the post Soviet period was the geopolitical struggle for Ukraine's allegiance agents? I reached Andrew Kramer a foreign correspondent for the times in Kiev on the one hand you had Ukraine very closely tied to Russia by industrial supply. Chains anes bioenergy pipelines and by culture and by history but the European Union was pulling Ukraine in Western direction. The European Union in the United States trying to conceive conceive of Ukraine as integrated into the western European world in as your uphold in one direction Russia started to pull back in. What was it about Ukraine Ukraine that interested the US and the European Union the idea was to encourage development of a democratic system and to prevent the reemergence urgence of Russian Empire? There was the axiom that Russia without Ukraine is just a country and Russia with Ukraine becomes an empire so maintaining the independence sense if you crane was a policy objective to prevent the reemergence of an expansionist imperial power in Moscow. If you look at this point the Cold War is officially over. But it's not quite over. That's right there was a feeling that the Russians although they had acquiesced to the independence of these countries they had a Phantom Phantom Limb Syndrome. They always felt that Ukraine and in fact should blonde to Russia Phantom limb as if they could never really believe that Ukraine or Tequila Tequila or any of these countries. We're not really there's anymore yes that's right and there's something more. There's a cultural issue at play here. Both Russia and Ukraine and trace their origin to Kiev. Kiev was the capital of the original Russian. State feel this was the roots of their country and they don't want to see it in another state so they feel that the Ukrainians are something like way were cousins in the sense that it should be obvious to Ukrainians that this is all one culture and one civilization so Russians believed that Russia Russia as a concept as a place as a country as an identity began in Kia. That's right but of course the fact that Ukraine is independent means that no matter how how Russia feels about it. Ukraine has the right to develop whatever relationship it wants with the US and with the European Union theoretically weekly certainly but they also have to be very cautious about not poking the Russian bear that they have a powerful neighbour and they have to acknowledge the real politics of their circumstances. What's developing here is a tug of war that becomes the story of Post Independence Ukraine with the West reaching out to form licenses and Russia's seeking to maintain its sphere of influence in Ukraine? Ukraine is trying to decide whether it wants to align himself ALF with Russia's regional trade ball to push for E. U. Integration. This really came to a head with two competing trade agreements which were offered to Ukraine. The Ukrainian president arrived in Strasbourg toys to work concluding association agreements one from the European Union and one from Russia with a view to later establishing a free trade trade area between Ukraine and the EU European Union offered a more serious informal trade arrangement with Ukraine. There would be possibly a path to membership in the other that was seen as a distant prospect after fifteen years of eager. Anticipation the customs. Union between Russia Belarus and Kazakhstan is up and running and Russia responded bonded by offering a trade agreement of its own which was called the customs union. The union created to ease mutual. Trade could be joined by another candidate Ukraine which was very similar alert on paper to the European Union but it was also in a sense a reforming of the Soviet Union as well as the country is crossroads deciding whether it's on east or West. This feels like a very consequential moment because to join the EU would feel like Ukraine saying officially we see ourselves as part of Europe to choose. WHO's a trade deal? Instead with Russia would be to say to the West we ultimately see ourselves as part of the world of Russia. That's right right so well. On paper this was about trade grain quotas and so forth. This is really about the destiny of the country. So that's true so you usual at the green. And where does the Ukrainian leader at the time fall on this decision. The West or Russia Zillah too quickly for little president the Ukrainian leader Viktor. Yanukovych had generally been seen as a pro Russian politician but he promised it. Ukraine would integrate economically with the European Union while maintaining good relations with Russia Europe ISKIN artsy niece. But in the end in a very dramatic moment most live a year scholarship. Musleh your coverage. Neither Komo's government announces that they will turn to Russia. Instead of the European Union for Trade Agreement. He goes with Russia he went with Russia. Feels genuinely surprising to me. I mean here. Is this country. Just a couple of decades out of independence and it is taking the most formal step possible to re integrate itself with the country. It sought independence from. That's right and this is what a lot of people in Ukraine in Kiev itself. About this decision there were protests in Kiev. That never let up. From the day they began in November of two thousand thirteen tell me about these protests when when I came down to cover these protests in the late fall of two thousand thirteen there was already attention camp in the center of Kiev Independence Square with thousands and thousands thousands of people on the square around the clock. People were genuinely outraged. Despite his decision to lean back towards Russia and also something who party really breath even though they were always riot policemen somewhere hovering on the edges of his protests sometimes making incursions nations making arrests. There were also oops called to to ski which were hired thugs who would come in with a lead pipe or knives straight razors and would be attacking. The protesters started to turn more violent. As winter came on by February I was living in hotel right on the square and it became very tense. When I drove into the city city in the early morning I could see black? Smoke rising from the center of Kiev from burning cars and there were a number of violent confrontations over about two days in late February in which the police eventually encroached on the square overran. Much of the territory that the protesters had controlled and pushed it back to a few two hundred square yards and at the last moment that protesters out of desperation they started to burn tires. And actually anything. It was flammable to make a a ring around this small charred bit of pavement. That was the only remaining area that they controlled that this sort of felt this was what was left of their dream of the independent independent Ukraine and then in the final eighth snipers there was really a cacophony. AH gunfire and there were snipers firing crowd. Aw over this hour and a half seventy people were killed and several hundred. People were wounded and it was such a brutal moment that the Ukraine elite and the international community realized that something that happened that could not be unaddressed and there was a revolt. Indiana Kovic government against the president and the police defected while I'm betrayed the president and actually left the city center and within hours. The president fled the capital. So what happens next what happened. Next was a move by Russia because Russia and President Vladimir Putin had just lost its ally in victory on a Kovic and the very next day Putin met with his security chiefs overnight and by Don President Putin orders what he calls an operation to take back Crimea. Yeah which is in the south of Ukraine and what. This was really was an order of a military intervention into Ukraine Back Hiring can be time consuming. That's why cafe Coo Dylan Moskowitz switched ziprecruiter. He posted a job for director of coffee And found the right person in just a few days how ZIPRECRUITER's technology finds great candidates for your job and actually invites them to apply four out of five employers. Who Post on Ziprecruiter? You get a quality candidate within the first day try Ziprecruiter for free at our web address. ZIPRECRUITER DOT com slash daily. That's ziprecruiter dot com slash DA. I L Y Ziprecruiter Ziprecruiter the smartest way to hire Russia is tightening. Its grip on Crimea as we get reports from an increasing number of troops and takeovers of key military facilities despite what is it about Crimea. That makes it the most logical place for Putin to try to invade. Crimea is host to a major Russian naval base into vast pool so the military infrastructure is partly already in place also so the population in Crimea predominantly russian-speaking so he would have receptive population in this area look at Ukraine and Crimea down in the south there there jutting out into the waters of the Black Sea home to a critical port. The Russian Navy has used for century this morning more unidentified pro Russia armed militias militias rolling the streets of Crimea's capital. So this was an unacknowledged intervention. These were men who had no insignia. On their uniforms they were called God disparagingly by the Ukrainians Little Green men as if they come from space and then in green uniforms by hundreds were showing up in their country Vladimir Putin proudly watching Russian military exercises today they surrounded Ukrainian military bases his air force controls the sky. They seized parts of the Ukrainian Navy. His army controls the road borders and military bases. They overran the local legislature and other centers of power and really within days had seized control Putin rules in Crimea. Now so by this point the political process starts the de facto authorities declare referendum. There are no observers so it's hard to say exactly what happened but the people are asked you want to join Russia. Relax remain in Ukraine rain and by this point of course they are in fact already part of Russia and the results come in and a majority Want to be next by Russia so Russia having invaded did Crimea. Then asks the people of Crimea. Do you basically mind that. We just invaded Crimea. And it turns out that the answer is no exactly is. Is it fair to say that Russia was using this kind of vote as a rationale to say. It's okay that we annexed Crimea because in a sense Crimea was always hours. Yes absolutely the message was these are people in their coming home. Yes the stadium so we left off back in Kiev with Ukraine losing its leader so what is the response in Ukraine to this military incursion by Russian what happened next was Russia tried a similar approach in other provinces. Just yesterday at this hour. Thousands of Russian troops have been deployed Ukraine's border. They fomented uprisings in Russian speaking areas and this led to the war that we have going on in Ukraine today between Pro Russian forces and pro Ukrainian forces. And what does this war look like. Yeah that'd be the forgotten war while there was interested. In the first months it's settled into a stalemate L. made good afternoon everybody. There was debate and the Obama Administration about how to respond though wanted to provide a brief update on our efforts to address the ongoing crisis in Ukraine and they settled on what they were calling Nonlethal Assistance American assistance for the Ukrainian government. So that they can weather this storm and stabilize their economy and this was is training for the Ukrainian army ambulances armored vehicles body armor radios and other types of assistance which were not doomed to be lethal or most importantly they would not provoke a retaliatory escalation from Russia. It's time to ask the hard question. Are we willing to stand up to Vladimir Putin's aggression before he kills more people does more economic damage further destabilizes Europe so this began in two thousand fourteen. Our options grow fewer and less effective effective support for Ukraine and Congress had been bipartisan. Both parties had agreed that backing Ukrainian independence was really in the United States. Interest that this was about holding Russia Bay. There hadn't been much controversy over that. That's why I'm announcing today. My plan to introduce new legislation. It will offer Ukraine greater assistance on a variety of fronts and and this was rolled over in Congress year after year right and so this is the military assistance that we have now heard so much about over the past few weeks exactly. Give them the weapons. They need to give them the wherewithal they need give them the ability to fight they will fight. The world is watching and the the world's superpower cannot be seen as incapable of rising to Russia's challenge. Okay so this is a situation after after two thousand fourteen so what happens to this relationship. WAS President Trump takes office from Ukrainian side. There was an effort to strike up transactional relationship with President trump. A sort of You scratch my back off. Scratch yours president. Kharshenko cousin of Ukraine at the time negotiated for example to buy coal from Pennsylvania this was politically beneficial for trump because the Pennsylvania coal miners were really. Trump's space and trumpet. Promised honest touch deliver jobs to coal miners in his campaign. That's a great honor and a great player but most of and the partners teaching we really fight freedom so the Ukraine government is desperate to do whatever it needs to do to get into trump's good graces because in their minds. If they can do that they they can restore a better relationship with the US and one in which the US sees Ukraine as a strategic partner and leans away away from Russia. Exactly thank you very much. It's wonderful to have president poor SHANECO with us. We spent some time recently the White House and I know you've made good progress since then a lot of progress actually and I wouldn't say it's the easiest place right now to live but you're making it better and better on a daily basis and it's very very good thing. So how is. President trump weighing in on this war waging within Ukraine between these pro Russian forces and Ukrainian any military and I really hope that Russia because I really believe that President Putin would like to do something. I really hope that you and President Putin get together and can solve your problem that would be a tremendous achievement. And I know you're trying to do that. He's been very quiet on on Russia's actions in Ukraine silence from the White House which is a pretty distressing given that we clearly thoroughly had a powder keg so will president trump really put pressure on Vladimir Putin over this latest clash between Russia and Ukraine we press the trump administration repeatedly on that question question neither the White House nor the State Department would comment and amid all this uncertainty about whether the trump administration is really supporting Ukraine in its conflict with Russia Asia Ukrainians learn by early August of this year. That about four hundred million dollars in military aid has been held up by the White House. Hundreds words of millions of dollars in military aid has poured into Ukraine since twenty fourteen. But that could be at risk. Critics say the potential aid cut is an example apple of trump capitulating to Russia so members of Congress are already sounding the alarm and this was the time when they needed. US backing and the aid was a symbol of us. Backing was also quite valuable for their military but it wasn't quite clear initially what the issue was or how serious it would become. There was a creeping awareness in Ukrainian government that the aid might in fact be lost by September Finally entered the reason. We're talking to you about this military aid at all. Is Of course the phone call. That president trump makes to Ukraine president and everything that we have learned since about the withholding of that aid Ukraine unless the Ukrainians agreed to do these investigations that president trump wanted into his rivals. And based on. What you've told us how critically important this aid is? I guess I'm curious what the people fighting the war in Ukraine on the ground. Who will lie on this military? What they make of this series of events ultimately when I talked to dozens of soldiers the feeling was one of disappointment they felt they had maybe lost an ally in this war? I was at the front in October and met with some soldiers and they naturally said they were disappointed. The the Ukrainian army is a poor army. They're fighting with basic weapons. Kalashnikov rifles binoculars. They're living in dugout bunkers. Some of the soldiers for example wearing tennis shoes and not boots I. It's a very grim existence so for them to learn the there were losing. The military assistance was quite a blow. Soldiers said they were disappointed is pointed so this was really shocked to soldiers to realize that they might be in this on their own Andrew thank you very much. Thank you this week. The first witness to be called in the public phase of the impeachment will be built on the top US diplomat in Ukraine. Who is expected expected to testify that he had acquired clear? Understanding that American military aid to Ukraine would not be released until the Ukrainians Indians pursued investigations. That would benefit president trump in his closed door testimony Taylor has described a quote sneak pit of if people around the president who are willing to use the military aid as leverage over Ukraine despite the danger it posed to Ukraine the Academy Award Winners Matt Damon and Christian Bale Star in Ford versus Ferrari based on the remarkable true story of the visionary American car designer Carroll Shelby and the fearless british-born driver. Ken Miles who together battled corporate interference the laws of physics and and their own personal demons to build a revolutionary racecar for Ford Motor Company. And take on the dominating race cars of Enzo Ferrari at the twenty four hours of Lemond in France in nineteen sixty six in theaters everywhere November fifteenth. Here's what else you need. So is this a sign that Republicans are prepared to go back on the offense here. ooh I think it is and First of all over the weekend house. Republicans released their list of witnesses for the next phase of the impeachment inquiry including. Thanks Joe. Biden's son Hunter Hunter Biden's business and the anonymous whistleblower whose complaint launched the inquiry excited to see some of these witnesses. This is that we've placed on the list. It's finally finally. We have an opportunity to to kind of get to the bottom of what's going on and to round out some of the evidence To to hear two four as as you know it's been a very one-sided sham of a process so the witness list appeared to be an attempt by Republicans to shift the focus of the investigation away from President Trump. Let's hope chairmanship will allow these witnesses to testify after reading the list the chairman of the committee overseeing the inquiry Democrat Adam Schiff suggested that he would reject the Republican witnessed and prevent them from testifying That's if for the unlikable Seymour. What is decision tech by fidelity? It's technology that can help you find a stock based on what's is trending or an investing goal. It's real time insights and information delivered in your own customized view of the market. It's smarter trading technology for Smarter Order Trading Decisions and it's only from fidelity open an account today at fidelity dot com slash trading fidelity brokerage services l._L._C.. Member N._Y._S._E. S._I._P._C..

Ukraine Ukraine Russia president Russia US President Putin Kiev President Trump Crimea Post Independence Ukraine European Union Ukraine government Europe Soviet Union Ukrainian army Russia Bay Congress Belarus
Russia-Ukraine ceasefire

The Current

26:17 min | 10 months ago

Russia-Ukraine ceasefire

"This is a CBC podcast. Hi I'm Laura Lynch. This is the podcast from the the December tenth edition of the current Ukraine's new president has said he would make a deal with the devil himself to bring peace to eastern Ukraine and yesterday in Paris. Russian President Vladimir Putin and Ukraine's Volodin Alinsky agreed to implement a ceasefire wishy issue over when you have these mini startled at the closing news conference President Putin emphasize he wanted to see changes to Ukraine's constitution giving permanent special status to the vast region. And some worry that in this quest for peace Ukraine and its European partners might be persuaded to give up too much coach to win the conflict. That's claimed more than thirteen thousand. Lives floor closer. Look at what was agreed to yesterday and the complicated geopolitics behind it. I'm joined by three experts. Bruno Latour is a senior fellow of security and defence at the German Marshall Fund of the United States in Brussels Orel Brom Brown is a professor of international relations and Political Science at the University of Toronto. He's with me in our Toronto suit. Studio and Best Mamani is a professor of political science at the University of Waterloo blue and a senior fellow at the Center for International Governance and innovation. There she is in Waterloo. Hello everyone hello hello ruined let hello. Let's begin with you. How significant is this ceasefire agreement? Sure thank you. Well let's put it in a nutshell Clearly the meeting in yesterday did not help to put at end the conflict in eastern Ukraine I think that it's fair to say what we saw was rather a series of small step decisions. Rather buttered symbolic I would say but the real issue at the core meaning. Russian intrusion in eastern Ukraine has not been addressed So in that respect to the expectations expectations before the meeting were low And I think exactly. That's that's what we so as an outcome yesterday As well can you outline what actually was agreed to sure so some thickness some small decisions such An agreement where Russia and Ukraine will Swap prisoners We saw that there was an agreement to increase the access points to the don't Baz region There will be increased efforts to de mine. Also the region. There's A. There's a big. The problem with with minds are already over there and of course perhaps for me personally The most significant decision I would say is that at least least delete US already agreed to meet each other again in a few months from now in March twenty twenty. I think that's very important to really set a new date. It's for a new meeting I hope that in the meantime diplomats of the Normandy countries. So we'll be able to Extra further solutions. Can you remind us why the Donbass region where it is. Why it's so important so the dumbass region as a region in Ukraine's east which borders there's we'd Russia historically it has always been the industrial hearts Off off Ukraine So that region that was basically intruded by By by Russia what happened is that When Ukraine decided in two thousand fourteen to straighten its relationship with with European Union separatists in those region rebels? That's four supported by the Kremlin took control of two major cities in that region It's Luhansk and And basically proclaimed independent republics in what is supposed to be Ukraine sovereign territory. So that's why What we have now is a frozen conflict meaning basically that we are at a conflictual situation there's no agreement on the future of the region and that's why after there was a meeting to see How how this can be resolved? Who Do you think came out ahead in these talk from the agreement yesterday? Well I think it was a draw. I mean I think many people had worried Particularly some nationalist in Ukraine that somehow Putin was it's going to basically steam rollovers Alinsky particularly because obviously Putin is much older more experienced Has certainly a lot of experience. Experience as a statesman And of course is very deceptive Zelinski is new to the entire political scene He was a comedian very much. A newcomer to Ukrainian politics and many nationalist again inside Ukraine. We're very much worried That you know basically Putin who is going to have his is way and I think most people would say that probably That's not the case. what we saw was no real progress on a lot of things. I mean you know. The ceasefire is useful wasteful. But Yeah this is the twentieth cease-fire so it's been broken many times before Some of the other parts of the agreement may have helped with kind of building some sort have confidence measure but we certainly have it. Resolved the biggest thorniest issue. which is of course what to do with Donbas? So it's very much. I think a draw between the two. Were you call the twin so you say the twentieth ceasefire. Do you think this one will hold no. Unfortunately that's not really different. The conditions haven't really changed much You know unless I think we have have a serious conversation about what to do in eastern Ukraine. We're going to have the same results that have happened in the past. Okay or Brown your turn. What who do you think came out ahead ahead? Yesterday I think to say draw is fair. What we've seen is an exercise in conflict management not in conflict awfully threat solution? We're very far from that. You will notice that there was not much talk about Crimea. So there's almost kind of tacit acceptance that Crimea now is firmly in the hands of Russia and he had that is very important because that was not only an act against Ukraine. It was an act act against international law. It was an act against the international community. It violated all sorts of agreements. It was an affront to the United Nations yet the world is not doing much about it then to that extent Mr Putin is apparently winning but what I think this this happening also the winds that Putin is having internationally not translating into real gain for the Russian people that these external victories do not compensate for the fact that Russia is failing as a modern state. And I do. I want to get into that in a little while. But but you bring up Crimea. Which yes the Crimean? Peninsula is in in Russian hands. How much hope can there be for? Long term. MM peace in Ukraine as long as Russia controls the peninsula. You seem to think that it's game over there. That's not even a conversation to have any more. I'm not sure it's entirely game over. But it is an indication of how far Russia has managed to convince international community particularly the Europeans will so you see Mr. Macron. WHO's an extraordinarily ambitious? Politician was basically from Angola. Mirko Macro Micro macron is going to be retiring and he's very conciliatory towards Russia and Mrs Mirko South who's very favorably inclined in some way towards Ukraine at the same time she has refused to provide military three aid. She is averse to exercising really strong pressure on Russia so in a sense Russia went in with certain advantages. Okay well then Brunelli. I'm wondering what you think about. The how France and Germany are positioning themselves in these in these negotiations and where their interests lie. Well I think it was very clear yesterday that France and Germany are satisfied with the status quo Clearly micro President Micro and chancellor. America are our balancing their support for Ukraine against France and Germany's relationship with Russia and that balance May Not necessarily till then. Ukraine's advantage Assets France has recently indicated that it desires a reset of diplomatic relations with the Kremlin Franz is actually interested to potentially work together and with Russia on issues such as terrorism for instance and Germany for it's for Sparta's interested in Russian gas ask to feed his growing domestic energy demands Ukraine and that has to come through Ukraine. Obviously does this also. Why sorry isn't Berlin? We'll not give up on KIEF. There needs to be a degree of stability but neither will Peres and Berlin take a strong stance against and so most co given their interests at stake. All right. That's my money. I'm wondering what you think. Canada wants to see from this latest peace effort given its vocal support for Ukraine. Yeah and we've seen a number of statements by the new Foreign Minister Champagne on twitter. Actually saying that you know candidate stands by the territorial integrity of Ukraine Certainly I think trying to be. I would say Overly supportive of The the the Normandy conversations conversations or talks but in a sense really trying to really support Ukraine of course there's a long history of Kennedy Ukrainian relations through migration patterns and and You know even our previous Foreign Minister Christa. Freeland was of course a very strong advocate of Ukraine. And so I think that is probably going to continue But you know I hate to say this in many ways. We're not a real big player in this. That really has unfortunately been lobbied to the Europeans and I have to agree with my previous Or my colleagues the what they said previously you know in many ways. Francis trying to re engage. But you know I think many are looking at even the body politics of How we saw? Have you know macron greeting Putin. You know we've seen this new relationship with Russia the French and Russian relationship strengthening in many worried that this is coming at the expense Benson Ukraine And we saw just again macron's body language with Putin being warm and hugs and kisses Zilenski very cold and so there's many fears inside Ukraine that there is going to be an attempt by both France and Germany. Of course Germany does have this lame duck presidency but the fact of the matter is. They're the biggest Beneficiaries of Nord Stream two pipeline second pipeline that would bypass Ukraine. And so they're real. Goal is to sort of normalize things and get things back to normal so they could continue dealing with Russia and getting this valuable gas into the EU and so that really makes a lot of Ukrainians very worried about what is is really going to happen behind the scenes and It's not a coincidence. I think that we have Lavrov. Visiting Washington D. C. Today The Russian Foreign Minister Minister exactly meeting with trump. You know what's being negotiated behind the scenes and of course just add more drama to the mix you have of course Ukraine rain and his phone call. Trump's phone call with Celeski being a real big part of the impeachment process. So there's lots of moving parts in this but I think you know where for many of us who are looking at what's happening are very fearful that Ukraine might get the short end of the stick basketball. You anticipated my next question or because of what is happening opening in Washington with the impeachment proceedings being linked to President Trump's conversation with the mirrors Alinsky the. US seems to be stepping out from. I'm this doesn't seem to be getting involved in the Ukraine process at all and I'm wondering what how that factors into all of this. It's definitely not a positive for Ukraine rain but we must not forget that this administration in Washington has been willing to provide Ukraine with lethal defensive armaments like javelins which is absolutely crucial lucile both symbolically and substantively. And if there's anyone else or anyone outside that we can help Ukraine it is the the Americans against because they have the means and they have the weight. The Europeans are not likely to do it and the Europeans are allowing themselves but the the German to become more dependent on energy that has been pipeline diplomacy on the part of the Russians to use energy as a means of Over leverage and that again creates additional vulnerabilities so it is a very complex picture. But I think at the same time we should not Over estimate the strength of Russia Russia itself is also vulnerable and Wise Russell so keen on making sure that Ukraine doesn't succeed and the reason for that is that what Russia fears most is not even the enlargement of NATO. They fear a successful democratic more graphic Slavic state on its border the fear democratic contamination. They fear a challenge to a rule. That is top down the power vertical. It kind of corrupt kleptocracy. And so it's let's needs to do is he needs to buy himself time. Inbreeding Space and get you to to succeed. There's no reason why Ukraine a wealthy country with enormous scientific talent could not succeed okay burner let him wondering what you think about well again yes. The picture is pretty complex I agree with my colleagues on the line that The United States as always played a very critical role towards Ukraine but now effectively the. US Ukraine policy is crippled. It's paralyzed and that is no good news. News for Ukraine indeed perhaps NATO here and can offer some some relief but even in the context of the alliance and the alliance is doing quite a bit for Ukraine crane in terms of training and education Even there you know we see the perhaps. NATO is not always aligned in in their support for Ukraine When it comes to Ukraine being a transit country energy plays a role in all of this obviously Ukraine in my. I believe we'll continue to play a role as a transit country but that role will diminish There's active building of several Oh pipelines no the only the famous norstrom too. But we're also talking about Dirk Stream. Turks remains an audit pipeline at actually goes through Turkey so you know it. It is a very complex. Jill geopolitical game issue And I am not sure you know where where things will will will end for Ukraine Especially if Europeans and Americans Do not entirely have Ukraine's back on this issue seems to me that the cost for Ukraine Creighton will be pretty high. Let's put the focus now more a more on Russia or thrown. You were already talking about Russia. I want to ask you about another development yesterday. The World Anti Doping Agency banned Russia from international sports events for four years following allegations that Russian officials tampered with that in a Moscow lab. Russia's says it's going to appeal. Can you help us. Connect the dots between Russia's behavior in the world of sports and geopolitics when we look at Russia it is a strange combination nation with a claim to be winners and victims at the same time that they are out playing the West but at the same time they are in circles in their pressure in this is why they moved Sukran because they feared Western encroachment in and enlargement but the reality is that the Putin regime has been operating on the kind of fantasy the seat a superpower fantasy which is manifested in aggressive assertive actions on its borders and this plays of sports supremacy supremacy and this is why doping was not something that the surprised anyone in the sports world. It is all about politics. You look at and what Russia's spent at associate was obscene over fifty billion dollars showcase which was really a white elephants and so the useful sport. It's part of trying to build the image Russia to create an impression. The Russia is superpower or is going to be a superpower again. It won't be has onto forty-three but people it's nominal rigidity is only that of of of Italy's Russia will fight very hard to try to appeal of this but even if he doesn't succeed it will look for subterfuges and that is it will try to insert its athletes on their Other guises us they could come and participate Not under the Russian flag. They did that before. And some who have been disappointed by decision By Anti Doping Agency that it did not ban athletes across the board. Some suggested that that is what should have happened not to allow this kind of entry deceptive huge for for Russia. That's my money. We heard oral brown talk earlier about the domestic support for Putin at this point And the international moves. He seems to be making when you see this the banning of the athletes. When you you see the situation with Ukraine when you see the the Russia being under investigation for meddling in foreign elections how does the Russian Russian government sit with its own people right now? Well it's always hard to tell you. I mean Russia controls the government at least eighty percent of of media. So it's very difficult. And we know what happens to free-thinking journalists They're killed whether it's abroad or at home and so it's really difficult to get a sense of exactly what the Russian people feel. I think there is support for Putin. Don't get me wrong. I'm not suggesting that There isn't and I think there is a part of this enormous ormuz historical Kind of imagery that's being evoked throughout all of The political incidents that are happening inside Russia outside outside that this is some great empire that is being denied its rightful place in history. As Professor Brown mentioned you know plays this victim And yet is very much at declining power. Our but yet suggests that all of the actions from the the banning of their athletes to what's happening in Ukraine to The Way Putin's been sanctioned end and all the the global sanctions on it is really about trying to deny Russia's rightful place in history that it's a a great empire that's being denied an opportunity and this is a way of punishing Russian athletes. Obviously they see this solely through a political lens. In fact some of the commentary that's coming out in Russia today was really about the timing of this particular announcement and The banning of athletes a somehow attempt to basically undermine Putin in negotiations and The Normandy summit so you know Putin has always tried to basically frankly so case abroad To make himself look good and this is unfortunately the way You know he thinks he gets this kind of respect as a state leader. You know. It's only by a showing. How how the western European countries have problems with migration they have problems with diversity all the sort of progressive ideals of liberal democracy? I see are basically undermining it from within. I mean just have to watch. RT unfortunately for a few hours to see this common theme Russia today being a Russian state television that's broadcast abroad. It's English language as well Brunel attire. I'm also in the Times that I've been reporting in Russia I've noticed it largely outside outside of of the city's Arts Moscow. People love Putin because he is a strong man and I'm wondering whether that is still holding whether people did you him with that kind of art or or whether that is wearing thin no well I think Strong people are being respected. It's a in Russia not the only today but also historically If you only imagine Russia is a massive country. Just look at it on the map And especially so you when in the nineties when Russia was hurting democratic experiences. There's a sentiment that This really didn't work well for the for the average person in the the streets for the people and so there is a sentiment that's to manage this immense landmass. You need to have a strong leader. You need to have a century entry centralisation of power so I think that Perhaps we can argue that the support for Putin's autocratic style may well be because democratic experiments of the nineties didn't really work out way that's some would have hoped for in Russia and how Europeans live next door to Russia generally enderle feel about about Russia's behavior across the board You know it's a complex spectrum. I would say Obviously one thing. We cannot change sitting here in. Europe is the fact that Russia is geographic neighbor This is simply something. We cannot change whether we like it or not So there must be some sort of dialogue with his neighbor And even in real life when you have a dispute with your neighbor or you don't agree with your neighbor you will need to try some sort of Modus Vivendi Of course those that are close to the border with Russia. I'm talking about countries in the Baltics Poland Day Rightfully so are of course concerned for their security because of the predictability of Russian behavior those are further removed from the Russian border generally generally tend to be more open to a dialogue With with Russia so I think what we see here. In Ukraine sorry in Europe is is some sort of divisive approach between countries that won't a strong deterrence and to basically address Russian escalation strategies versus versus. Does that are in favor of really dialogue and conversation with Russia and do not necessarily see Russia as threat to their security right or Brown. What do you? I think that we will see in terms of Russia's influence on the world stage in two thousand twenty they will certainly try to disrupt because this is with the forte. Not of the Putin regime is and so they will claim shouldn't external victor's prod and probe the West but but it doesn't really help them domestically I'm not as pessimistic about the prospects for long-term democracy Russia's some of the people are because the dictatorship is not worth the social contract with Mr Putin's unraveling. The standard of living is not growing Russia. Stagnating economically there is a lot of dissatisfaction. People may not understand Jeffersonian democracy but they do understand that the system does power vertical descript. Accuracy is simply not what's working Putin survived for an awfully long time longtime but nothing lasts forever and what we know from this stream of Countries in eastern nice to your analysis where things can unravel and they can unravel quickly and Mr Putin himself is not immoral His in his sixties and one Ten CanNot Continue Stein's law than it stops Stops going on and we see all sorts of disturbing signs. He tries this kind of political magical realism realism. Where he combined thirty precedent with the ridiculous to create an image but it is subject to tone loss of diminishing returns? That's my money. Same question and to you. What would you think we'll see in terms of Russia's influence and behavior in in the new year unfortunately we're going to get more of the same Again this idea of sewing KS US abroad to make it look good is really a way to also You know make Putin not just seeing like the strong man but also the bearer of stability inside the country and you know there's this the famous idea that You know the Russians often choose the TV over the fridge. This idea that you know they're they much prefer having A STRONG MEN ON TV who projects Russian power brings back feelings of the Russian Empire over the fridge. which is more of the economic issues? But I agree with Professor Serb-run You know the economic you know kind of future for Russia does not look good. It's an economy that hasn't diversified overly dependent on oil. Oil prices are art declining. And frankly it doesn't have a lot of solution for a lot of young people The young I think activists that are out there continue to show up and we saw on municipal elections in Moscow. Recently you know youth really kind of objecting to the way politics are being presented to them by Putin so I think there's also generation generational channel change there but the economy is I think one that is Frankly not not emblematic of rising empire. It is very much a declining power. Four and it's going to have to come to some change of that social contract all right we will have to leave it. There certainly bears watching in the new year. Thank all three of you thank you you ruined. Oletta is a senior fellow of security and defence at the German Marshall Fund of the United States in Brussels Aurel Braun is professor of international relations and Political Science at the University of Toronto and best mom. Mamani is a senior fellow at the Center for International Governance Innovation and a professor of political science at the university city of Waterloo for more C._B._C.. PODCASTS GO TO C._B._C. Dot C._A. Slash podcasts.

Ukraine Ukraine Vladimir Putin Russia Russia Russia Russia United States professor of international rel Russia Volodin Alinsky Benson Ukraine German Marshall Fund University of Toronto Berlin Waterloo professor of political science Laura Lynch president Toronto
Meanwhile in Ukraine....

Today, Explained

20:09 min | 1 year ago

Meanwhile in Ukraine....

"You've heard about the phone call. You've skimmed the partial transcript but maybe this whole time. You've just wanted to hear the president. Say it and today is your day so I would. I would say that presidents Alinsky. If it were me I would recommend that they start an investigation into the Biden's because nobody has any doubt that they weren't crooked. That was a crooked deal. One hundred percent Ya that's the sound of the presidents of the United States as a foreign in country to help take down his political rival from the South Lawn of the White House. No less an impeachment inquiry is evidently not enough to deter President Donald trump from what he really wants dirt on Joe and Hunter Biden from Ukraine likewise. China started investigation into the by because what happened in China is just about as bad as what happened with with Ukraine. We called Daria Colony UC in Kiev to find out what it's like for Ukrainians to find themselves in the center of an American impeachment scandal. I'm executive director of the UNDAY Corruption Action Santa and what does that mean. We are doing what you dog work our government and our we expose corruptions and we advocate for change asked her to tell me as best she could how this mess with Hunter Biden in Ukraine got started started very important to talk about corruption. If you don't talk about corruption why would you give money to a country that you think is is corrupt. Five years ago we had people protesting against a secretive regime of Victorian coverage said we had to begin with Ukraine's former the president twenty four Ukrainians sick of corruption revolted three hundred which the president ran away to Russian and emitted after that we started focusing on assets recovery of process of corruption of Yanukovych and this it's time where I have started observing booties. Ma Ma is deleting independent exploration and production company operating in the Ukrainian the oil and gas market. You might recall Barista as the company that gave Hunter Biden a cushy Gig but he's not the company is owned by former minister of natural resources of Viktor Yanukovych and criminal investigation against Burris. Mom One was crucially important in order to recover millions of dollars which McCullough's from Ukraine Barista is basically Glee Ukrainian for shady gasoline in April two thousand fourteen twenty three point five million dollars were seized by British law enforcement officers at the Council of this company in order to recover this access to Ukraine British law enforcement needed evidence that this money are automated origin and this evidence has to be produced by Ukrainian law. Enforcement Agency were victor shocking gene. The tough prosecutor Junaini likes and prison trump likes had to deliver this evidence. Shokhin is is this prosecutor trump likes to say Biden had fired to benefit his son hunter even though there's no evidence of that and there was no no will and no desire under the leadership of victory shocking to pursue the case and to develop the case it was obvious for everyone who wanted to help Ukraine to recover esus that shocking was dumping this investigation and that will protested newer doing then menu rallies in front of shocking office and in front of buildings of president of Ukraine demanding resignation of the SHILPA IT turns out a lot of Ukrainians wanted shokhin fired. I was protesting. Many other organizations. Were protesting testing. We are here now. Ask our president what the hell going on color nuke leasing under corruption watchdog NGO allow him to maintain detained the Soviet system of prosecution which intimidates people and then afterwards Joe Biden came. This is the genesis of the trump conspiracy right here vice president. Joe Biden went to Kiev to help the new government. You have to fight the corruption and Oscar president per Shankar fire shocking because he was considered by everyone is very corrupt person who dumped many investigations including the case Burris said. I'm telling you not getting billion dollars. I said you're not getting a billion believing here. I think it was what six hours I look leaving mm six hours. If the prosecutors not fired you're not getting the money and that's what we were so happy that Joe Biden came and actually made a very tough condition that iser you present version of fire chucking or there will be no financial eight one billion financial eight thus far. There's just no evidence against this had anything to do with Biden's son. This was about getting rid of a divisive Ukrainian prosecutor Victor Shokhin so when i read the transcript of the phone cold between president trump unprecedented Lansky and that phone call. I heard that there was a very good guy a tough prosecutor shocking. I couldn't believe that because shocking was actually the example of one of the worst prosecutors V had and who was intimidating good people in his agency who was dumping investigations including breeze might last Gatien so I was embarrassed to have president of the United States Senate in such a credit to such a corrupt prosecutor but I understand so excellently now why why he was doing that. It's a case that is crying out to be investigated. If it doesn't get investigated we just don't have equal justice in this this country and it was the narrative coming from Dooney. Johnnie Rudy loves this conspiracy. Biden's son took millions of dollars out of the Ukraine. Well Joe Biden as vice president and Joe Bragged two years later that he got the prosecutor general fired. He just left out of it that the prosecutor general was investigating. His son and his sons crooked boss. That's Sir conspiracy theory which was presented by religion. onny needs shocking who wanted to investigate burris. Shokhin it appears was not terribly interested in investing Barista and here is where the conspiracy spiracy theory from Rhodesia landfalls apart so this White House conspiracy theory must seem kind kind of insane to Ukrainians who thought shocking was totally corrupt thought. Barista was totally corrupt. Most of the Ukrainians don't understand and what is happening and they don't understand how American system works but I couldn't believe that the president of the United Estates Code the President of Ukraine asking to interview into work of law enforcement agency in Ukraine because this is something that we are trying to change in Ukraine for the last five years the idea behind our anti corruption efforts forts is that law enforcement and judiciary system in Ukraine has to be free from political interference and free from oligarchy interference since the United States was our key parter in this work so it was very depressing for me to read that hat fund cold transcripts. I think we hear a lot about trump's tone and his tactics during that call. How did you feel about Presidents Alinsky tone and his approach to dealing with President President trump. I was disappointed as well. He was trying to agrees Everson. President trump was telling him and there was only one message from him which I can understand he asked for help in war is Russia. He asked for Javelin 's as he at that time already understood that there's something wrong as military eight which was scheduled to be sent to Ukraine but was stopped at certain moment right presidents. Alinsky was in this awkward position because he needs something from president trump and we kind of saw him in that awkward position again last week at at the United Nations General Assembly when they gave this joint press conference and he was asked if he was pressured by president trump in front of president trump and he said said no because of course he had to say no no cure that we had I think good phone call to US normal. We spoke about many seeings and so I think you read it that nobody push push me. Yes lose the way how you said that the. UN Assembly was very talented because I he said I'm sorry but I don't want to be involved involved two we wouldn't elections elections of USA. No I think that prisons and ends keep was was trying to avoid taking an picking sites in American political battle Ukrainian journalists and Ukrainian citizens is care about war and how to end war and achieve peace and this is the topic now in Ukraine. It's it's like we are leaving in parallel worlds so the perception of this scandal in the United States in Ukraine is absolutely different because we have different problems he can were you have trump presence and were he had to deal up this trump so I can understand him that war this is today split uh-huh Here's a fun fact for your dinner conversation tonight. If all all the world's billionaires formed a country it'd be the eighth largest economy in the world. There are more billionaires right now than there have ever urban and on the latest episode of Netflix series explained. They're going to explain how globalization and capitalism made that happen for someone with. You know just two billion dollars. A trip on a private jet is like taking a New York City subway right. A LAMBORGHINI is like buying a little bicycle and buying a private island is like a down payment on a house billionaires there so relatable find out other ways billionaires are relatable in the latest episode. Soda Fox's Netflix series explained you can just search for it on Netflix or you can go to net flix dot com slash explained Daria. Yeah tell me about the conflict between Ukraine and Russia right now. There is not a conflict there is were. Russia occupied Ukrainian territories specifically Russia occupied in two thousand fourteen Crimea. The Peninsula in store in the Black Sea is a huge territory new crane and decided that it's not rush and not Ukraine it violated all international standards and International National Peace Order Second Brush now occupied also Bart's of Ukrainian territories on the east of Ukraine they were they are providing military systems weapon and sometimes even soldiers to the group of people's convey can't rebels and then they started taking over government buildings setting up their own independent republic and these people are shooting every day into that territory of Ukraine which is controlled by Ukrainian. Military soldiers are literally dying in this war. We have one a million internally displaced. People who leaked in this occupied territories butts had thrown away from bathrooms. Mr Trump began supplying weapons to Ukraine in two years ago in its fight against russian-backed separatists the war there now is in its sixth year with thousands dead and no signs of an and insight what is Russia's goal here to just acquires much territory as it can. Russian goal is to control Ukraine nine and prevent Ukraine from succeeding as the Independent State. Were democracies flourishing Varvara jobs. Were investments. were the rule of law. There is no corruption because if you craner will be successful then there is a huge danger for entire Russian Empire to collapse and there will a huge danger for Putin and Kremlin to lose its power so Russia threes Ukraine as the younger brother they have to control and that Ukraine brain doesn't have a right to decide where to go so how important in the United States is relationship with Ukraine right now how important is US military aid which president trump withheld in Ukraine's war with Russia this is of existential importance because we need military aid financial aid and weapon in order to they make sure that our soldiers are able to defend our territory and second we need strong political backup and support from the United States who guaranteed our serenity back in one thousand nine hundred four and Ukraine voluntarily gave up all its nuclear weapons in exchange for guarantees from the United States United Kingdom and Russia that our serenity and territory will be protected. If someone attacks US Ukraine's decision will permit the United States Russia and the United Kingdom to extend formal security assurances to Ukraine but out of these three garden tours Russia attacked US and occupied our territories and we rely now on the United Kingdom and the United States eight to help us defend our territory and fight back. That's what is important that United States keep sanctions against Russian regime and against a Russian Oliver's against the Russian economy. It is important that the United States is not letting Russia bags to the international organizations decisions like it's the group of states where Russia used to be but it was kicked off G. seven because four in Ukraine and the words the most recent messages from President trump that Russia has to be returned to come up. Should we put rice. You're back in. We spend a lot of time talking talk about Russia at those meetings and they're not there. I think it would be a good thing if you were there. Do you feel like that. The US support is now flagging under president trump because he he wants to have a friendly relationship with Putin Ukrainian very much disappointed every leader on the west who thinks that it is possible to talk to Putin and it just possible to be friends with Putin because putting understands only legal language of power. I can see that has as this whistle blower scandal in the United States affected directly Ukraine's war with Russia it it has direct impact because in all the to win war there shall we need bipartisan support of the United States and right right now the Rodney go she actually on the possible his deal on the occupied territories in Ukraine on the east and there is a risk force to accept back this occupied territories and providing amnesty to terrorists which were margarine people and killing killing our soldiers and this could also trigger lifting sanctions against Russia so in this pivotal moment for Ukraine and its war with Russia awards killed something like thirteen thousand Ukrainians according to the United Nations. The whole world is focused on a phone call president trump had with your president. How's that feel it feels very bad. We feel lonely within within lonely and we can understand that everyone has its own interest but Ukrainians to mobilize ourselves and defend our country country but unfortunately we didn't mention yet to belt. Ukraine is a strong country who want to do that. Um and the reason why everyone talks about this phone. Call and Ukrainian corruption is because we are fighting with groups because we are exposing the networks of oligarchs tycoons with ties to the United States but also ties to Russia and they are fighting back but do need support and for many years United States was our key supporter. I hope that United States will continue to be support l. few crane and Ukraine reformers and I believe into American institutions which can resist interference appearance and fresh br ooh. ooh Darya Colony Cook is the Executive Director Rector of the anti-corruption action center in Kiev Ukraine. I'm Sean Romney's firm and this is Ukraine explained

Ukraine president Donald trump Hunter Biden United States President of Ukraine vice president prosecutor Kiev Ukraine Russia Burris Russia Kiev Barista United States Senate Victor Shokhin Putin Netflix United Nations General Assembl
The Prehistory of the Ukraine Scandal

Impeachment: A Daily Podcast

23:57 min | 11 months ago

The Prehistory of the Ukraine Scandal

"This is impeachment a daily podcast from WNYC. I'm Brian Lehrer. It's Monday November. Eleven today the prehistory of the trump Ukraine scandal with the first public hearing scheduled for this Wednesday and Friday. How did we really get here? Philip bump and Aaron Blake from the Washington Post have put together what they call the full trump Ukraine time-line Philip. The bump joins us now to talk about the five years. Yes five years leading up to the infamous. Trump's alinsky phone call in July of this year and the larger scheme scheme to time military aid a White House meeting to Ukraine investigating trump's political rivals. PHILLIPI appreciate this really useful time line and your own time time today. Thanks for coming on. You Bet it's called the full trump Ukraine timeline. But it really starts almost three years before trump becomes president. You first entry is February twenty-second twenty fourteen. When the Pro Russia President Viktor Yanukovych is ousted during a popular uprising against him? Any fleas to Russia. Why start there is a great question because it actually does go well before that as as I'm sure probably most listeners know we decided to start at that point because that was really the the trigger point for most of the tension between Russia and the US it was? It was a pro Russian leader in Ukraine who was ousted by out of popular demand And that it really started the tension between those countries which I think informed a lot of what follow your time line notes that Yanukovych had come to power with the help of Paul Manafort. Who would go on to be? Trump's uh-huh campaign chairman. Why did Paul Manafort an American political consultant WANNA help? The Guy who was helping Russia expanded its influence by dominating Ukraine because because they gave him money to do that. Paul Manafort was never one who is putting ethics before prophets He works over for a long period of time with a number of people of questionable repute. Colluding in the Philippines and another places And he was very involved in what was called the Party for each and Sisters Yanukovych is political. Party helped him get into that position. which then later on? I don't WanNa give any spoilers here. But we'll come back to burn him and be involved in all of this in the future and the next month March twenty fourteen a month after Manafort's client and a covert is forced out. Russia should isn't having this new resistance to it and that's when it invades the Ukrainian peninsula of Crimea. And next is it such a pivotal event. Just take it back. As part of Russia March twenty fourteen two months later may thirteenth two thousand fourteen Hunter Biden joins the board of Barack Obama on by Cacolo Chef ski one of several subjects of Ukrainian corruption probe. Can you tell us more about that. Why did Hunter Biden son of a sitting vice president at that time? Twenty fourteen eighteen join breweries most board. It's a good question. I don't know that I've heard really detailed response from him on that. I think that his motivation was probably not unlike Paul Manafort's which is that they were paying him money to do that. He was in the business of providing advisory services to companies. And my guess is that was probably a primary motive and now here comes something related to that that I think we're very likely to hear about on day. One of the public hearings on Wednesday early. Twenty fifteen now and one of the witnesses who will testify on Wednesday State Department official George George. Kent Raises Concerns About Hunter. Biden's work with burris Ma but Joe Biden's office turns him away as you put it. Can you elaborate on. What George Kent's concern turn was about Hunter Biden being on that board and what he says? The interaction with Joe Biden's office was like. Yeah so I mean there are obvious reasons in this actually came up later. during President Alabama's actually administration or obvious reasons to be concerned about hundred binds involvement with this company and his involvement with Ukrainian power more broadly Ken says that he he raised this issue. With Biden's office. This was the time when Beau Biden. Joe Biden's other son was dying of brain cancer. I and so he was told essentially. Look I we don't have time to worry about Hunter Biden right now or the vice president's focused on Bo Biden but the impression that one gets from canton particular is that he. He was not particularly satisfied with the response that he got in terms of his concerns about about that possible conflict. So I guess we'll hear Republicans questioned him about that on Wednesday but the next four entries on your time. Line about people. Wanting Ukraine's chief prosecutor. Victor Shokhin fired for not investigating corruption. And these seem to establish that the way the trump people trying to portray Joe Biden's role role in getting that Ukrainian prosecutor. Victor show can fired at the time is totally misleading September. Twenty four th Twenty Fifteen Geoffrey Free Pyatt than US ambassador to Ukraine blasts Shokhin in a speech in Odessa Ukraine. He points to glaring problem that threatens the good work. Regional leaders are doing the failure of the institution of the Prosecutor General of Ukraine to successfully fight internal corruption than October eighth assistant. US Secretary of State Victoria newland testifies to the Senate that showcases office has to be. Reinvented as an institution that serves the citizens of Ukraine rather rather than ripping them off that's quote then December Eighth Twenty fifteen in Kiev Biden tells Ukrainian leaders to fire Shokhin or lose more than a billion dollars in loan guarantees. That's what the Republicans are calling Biden's quid pro quo. But for context as you point out Biden joins many western leaders in in urging Shokhin's ouster and as a further example of that a few months later February tenth twenty sixteen the International Monetary Fund wind threatened to halt a bail out program for Ukraine unless the country addresses issues which includes firing victor show concern so the point they are very important. Point is there's overwhelming evidence that Victor Shokhin was not fired as a way to ease up on Hunter Biden the whole Western world world wanted him fired because he wasn't investigating corruption in Ukraine. That's exactly right. I mean the the idea from Republicans is that Shokhin was going hard against his mind therefore Joe Biden. Crackdown McDonnell. And it's in fact the opposite is the case is that Shokhin wasn't cracking down on corruption that Roy's mother is not evidence Beyond from Shokhin himself obviously is not a reliable narrator here. There's evidence charisma was actually under investigation. At the time that he That Shokhin was fired. Shocking was essentially according to all of these various people falling down on the job and not actually tackling the systemic problem had Americans concerned. Americans were concerned at that time. Legitimately about how much do we support Ukraine when Ukraine is is a corrupt political institution. Shokhin being there was was seen as an obstacle to real reform and that is why all of these leaders including at that time. Joe Biden were focused on him and his removal and then March Twenty Ninth Twenty sixteen. Sixteen Shokhin is finally fired in the weeks. After the International Monetary Fund threatened to halt a bail out program so maybe had nothing nothing to do with Joe Biden or the US Secretary of state or the US Ukraine ambassador. Wendy IMF said. They're going to withhold the green That they finally fired Victor Shokhin. I think there were probably there was a combination of a lot of different pressures. That Ukraine is feeling at that point. January twelfth twenty seventeen and trump is already elected. It's eight days before he's sworn in and Ukraine closes its investigation of Burris MMA. Though the new chief prosecutor shooter Lukashenko says one sale of an oil storage will still be investigated. Do you know basically what they found ultimately in the investigation nation of Barista corruption. I don't it's interesting because this is actually brees Matt saying at that point in time all of these things have been close. We're not really sure on when they were actually closed because again remember the the idea. Is that in the late twenties early. Two Thousand Sixteen time for him when Shokhin is being targeted for his mother wasn't apparently under investigation. So this was this maven. Something emerged after that under the new president. Petro who of course is not currently the president. So it's not really clear what actually happened with the breeze thing. That's part of one of the mysteries here. And part of that. Too stems from the fact. That Ukraine's politics are a little murky and that data's interesting in part as I think you were suggesting that answer the investigation of Burris. MMA was not closed when Joe Biden was as president suggesting some kind of pressure to save Hunter Biden from anything that they may have acted on only after Biden was leaving so that helps was established that there's no evidence for that however. Let's jump ahead to something in your time line that perhaps could help trump's defense January eleventh 2017. Oh I guess we're really jumping back one day so it's the same week. January eleventh twenty seventeen just before trump is inaugurated political liberal reports that Ukrainian officials quote helped Clinton's allies research damaging information on trump and his advisers during the campaign on quote. Now Philip seems to me this could become central to our trump defense that getting campaign help from the country is more common than the press and the Democrats are making it seem and oh by the way both parties do it in both parties. Did it in two thousand sixteen. But how much was is that political angle proven right now. It's a great point and I think it's important. Remember January twenty seventeen. The media was obsessed over what we were just then learning about Russia's his role interfering the two thousand sixteen sixteen two months prior the election actually occurred. So we're just starting to learn that the CIA and the FBI concern about what Russia had done and so political comes Out and says. Hey we've uncovered this Ukrainian thread to the big difference. Is the scale of the efforts right. The Ukraine effort there was a woman who worked as a consultant. I'm for the Democratic National Committee who has subsequently been called as a potential witness by Republicans in this house inquiry But she was essentially trying to dig up. She went to the Ukrainian embassy and said hey what he got on Manafort Ford because again as I said people are really focused on. Look there's gotta be something we can find on Paul manafort given his history So that's one of the really central parts of this. Political piece is a one from the. DNC went the Ukrainian embassy and ask them for help on Manafort. That's very very different than both the scale of what happened with Russia in two thousand sixteen and who was actually leading the effort I mean that was was according to reports driven by Vladimir Putin himself saying let's focus on this and twenty sixteen so it's very different but you're exactly right. Donald Trump and his allies are very much much very prone to sort of what aboutism and they've. They've lifted up this article repeatedly as an example of Ukraine. Being a bad actor as well or Guacamole ahead three months it's down to April twenty first twenty seventeen so trump is in office for few months and he for the first time tweets this conspiracy theory that Russia didn't hack the DNC and release all those emails damaging to Hillary Clinton in the final weeks of the campaign it was actually Ukraine that hacked the DNC. And and they did it not to help trump but to help Clinton and now this is widely called the debunked conspiracy theory by now. We should say but what was the theory even based on how dropping all those bad for hillary emails be away to help her win the auction so keep in mind to what Donald Trump is trying to do at this point. This is very concerned about the Russia. Investigation this April twenty six seventeen right before he fires James Comey he'd been asking James Comey behind the scenes according to call me. Hey lift this cloud. I've got Russia hanging over my head. So what Donald Trump's trying to do here is distracted during the two thousand sixteen campaign shortly after there was a conspiracy theory than emerge and that the the the link goes the the first analysis of the DNC survey was done by Nicole. cloudflare a guy who Helped Co found cloudflare sits on the Board of this nonprofit organization that nonprofit organization receive if some funding from a Ukrainian oligarch. That's the tie that is. That is the extensive link between Ukraine and the server it is calling debunked as generous. It's nonsensical Eh. Lot of ways. It is also the focus of what would later be trump's. I asked to persons Lense just for the record cloud fair or I think I've heard crowd. Yes crowd right. Yes not to disparage a company unfairly. Yeah Company may second twenty eighteen. Now we get into last year. Ukraine stops cooperating. With Robert Muller Color in the Russia investigation then may fourth two days later. Three Democratic senators Durbin Lahey and Menendez right to Ukraine's prosecutor prosecutor Lutsenko to ask him to reconsider now. Philip trump's supporters will ask. Why was a foreign country? Cooperating with Muller investigation into a US political little scandal and is that any different from what trump is asking Ukraine to do with investigating their theory of two thousand sixteen election interference interference on the other side right. And I think that's a fair question. I think it's important to note that this is the New York Times reported that Ukraine heads had been reticent to help them all or probe recognizing how president trump felt about the probe and so they were sort of making a geopolitical decision. Do we go out of our way to anger. Donald Trump. By helping with this thing. This was a probe that was sanctioned sanctioned by Donald Trump's own justice department. This is a special counsel that was appointed by you. Know the the Deputy attorney general is a very different thing than Donald trump sort of speculatively saying. Hey maybe there's something on Joe Biden if you could find something dig something up or at least make an announcement about it. That'd be helpful. And based on what we discussed before maybe the differences the Muller Investigation Gatien was real the whole intelligence community concluded Russia hack the DNC and Muller actually indicted a dozen individual Russians with mountains of evidence. It's while the theory that it was really Ukraine was only ever a political trek. A fabrication made up to cast out on the Russia investigation to help save trump trump. So of course Ukraine would help with one and not help with another. Yeah Yeah I mean I think part of what we're seeing. The most recent testimonies Ukraine found itself in the same geopolitical bind. Once trump started making those asks but it certainly was rational for Ukraine to have a response of okay this is a legitimate investigation versus. This is something that is the will of the president. Now we get to this year and some of the intrigue that will be hearing about in the public hearings. You have on March twentieth of this year Ukraine Chief Prosecutor under your Religious Sankoh tells a pro-trump American journalist John Solomon of the hill that our ambassador to Ukraine Maria. Vich gave him a list of people who we should not prosecute in other words von which is being tarred as corrupt. It's at least implied there and trying and to protect corrupt people. But you're right that the State Department called the claim an outright fabrication at the time. So let me focus on that Secretary of state date. Mike Pompeo State Department defended IANOVICH. Yeah I mean this was. This was a claim that was later retracted by Lukashenko a month. Or Two later It was it was pretty obviously not true. And it was in fact Lukashenko trying to give information. I mean keep in mind at this point in time as well. Ukraine is going through its next presidential presidential. Election Lukashenko is the general prosecutor. He's worried about his job. He thinks that if the The then current President Petrichenko Is Out of office. He may lose his position and so it seems quite likely that he is actually trying to engage in political mechanisms. That will boost Petra. Shinko's chances by endearing themselves to the trump administration. Yes exactly thirty. No trump doesn't like von of each right and they also know by now that Rudy Giuliani is very actively trying to dig up dirt in Ukraine. And and so they're trying to give them this and Giuliani and Solomon have an interesting relationship through another pair of lawyers. It's very complex and detailed but so Giuliani has this tide. Solomon Solomon's interviewing in this guy's Giuliani has already talked to people who are involved in this whole thing as well so all of this is sort of an emergency to the surface of something that sort of being in the works for months. Trying to figure. You're out how they talk about Ukraine and trump friendly terms April twenty four th of this year ambassador Yvonna Vich gets that one. AM phone call. That's been in the news. Now from a State Department official that Ivanovich reveal that her testimony recently telling her to come home from Ukraine on the next plane for the shake her security fill most of the public started to hear only in September about trump and rudy and the shadow foreign policy toward Ukraine designed to advantage trump. Personally but all of this stuff. We've just been talking about took place in earlier months this year. That phone call to Yvonna. Vich was US in April that made up smear against her by the cranium. Prosecutor was in March. Most of the public started to hear about all this only in September number after the whistleblower complaint became public but in May of this year is when the story did begin to break out publicly a little little bit for people paying really close attention to the news may I. The New York Times publishes an article asking whether Biden's role in pressing four four prosecutors Shokhin's ouster back in two thousand fourteen twenty fifteen had anything to do with Hunter Biden being on the board of Berea smut and portraying it as a potential liability. Be Biden's twenty twenty campaign but then may seven six days later a Bloomberg News Article Casts Doubt on the Times article. Can you explain how the two news organizations positions were at odds in the first week of May. Well I think part of it is the function just of the You know I keep using the word market but with justification. It's really unclear about what was going on. I'm at that point in time. And the people at the center of its Shokhin and Loot Sangha for example. We're not necessarily always forthright in terms of what they actually done it. I think it's important to note that May Odd Article in The Times is from Ken. Vogel who actually happened to be the same guy at politico reported the first Ukraine. Thanks which I always find it an interesting parallel But essentially what Bloomberg had done on is looked at what had been reported by the times and May I and sort of dug into a little bit further and found some of the gaps that we now recognize sense of course the whistleblower complaint was made public. Look a lot more gaps have emerged and you know the extent to which there probably wasn't even a lot of smoke there has been revealed may ninth. This year Rudy. Giuliani tells the New York Times. He will travel to Ukraine to push for investigations and right away. Democratic Senator Chris Murphy of Connecticut tweets that everyone should take note that the president in is asking a foreign country to investigate his political rival. Now much of the press did take note. That early May ninth so this really really however for people who are paying attention broke out in May yeah. I think it's safe to say I think it's safe to say You know in the Giuliani. I think that his interview with the Times I mean night will will become one of the key factors here because in that interview essentially says I was working for my Klein if this happened to benefit the United States more broadly than great when again remember the trump's argument argument is that he was solely thinking about what was good for the United States in rooting out corruption in Ukraine and not trying to give them money if they were a crop organization or crops country. that Giuliani was so forthright in going to Ukraine and trying to dig the stirred up specifically for trump's personal benefit. I think we'll become something. That sorta hovers over all this E. L. in in Brooklyn you're on. WNYC good morning. Good Morning Brian. Thank you for taking my call. My my question is this We have seen In the reveal zeal of the communication with Ukraine that trump has done a quid pro quo. And I'm almost positive that he's more cripple quogue with more head of states that he's been in conversation with since the beginning of S- presidency. How long will we have to wait to get these calls to make these calls public? Because I'm sure there's more evidence that that is Running the country for his benefit. Well I I think that there are a lot of legitimate reasons that that these conversations between president the trump and foreign leaders would be kept under wraps. You know obviously there is an exceptional nature to this particular conversation. The July twenty fifth call that has become a focus so much attention in that the White House reportedly tried to spirited away to the Super Secure Server which is abnormal. The fact that Bill Taylor. Who is the acting ambassador in Ukraine? That he's never even briefed. You've done conversation which is very bizarre Since obviously this is a conversation that affected him directly. That said there certainly are reasons that there are times in which the president it doesn't want actually reveal the contents of his calls with foreign leaders for very good national security reasons And so I don't know that we're ever going to see the full documentation of all these until told you know. Whatever the National Archives laws are that that these released so listeners that some of the pre history of what you may already know that trump Ukraine but Philip? While you're here let me touch on on some developments from over the weekend. The Republicans let it be known this weekend. THAT THEY WANNA call Hunter Biden and the whistle blower as witnesses is for these televised hearings. Let's leave the whistle blower side. We know the arguments against that. But what about Hunter Biden Do the Democrats solely get to decide if the Republicans may call Hunter Biden. Well they do they. They are in the majority. They are get to sign off on what the witness list actually looks like. I think there will be pressure on the Democrats to allow at least one or two of these witnesses simply because they wanNA show it as being as open as possible. I think that's why the witness list is what it is because it's a lot of people I think honestly the most fascinating percents that list is Alexander Chalupa who is that. DNC staffer who was the one who is seeking the information on Manafort which is very much a totally separate issue has nothing to do with what president trump did was Linski what to do with Ukraine. But it is an effort to try and bolster. This idea that there was something untoward that Ukraine had done. The Hunter Biden thing is interesting very skeptical in part because of political reasons. The Democrats will actually have him be a witness but it's clear the Republicans are hoping to do is to continue to be able to paint this as something where they did not have a part in it in any substantial way. What would the Democrats excuse be for not allowing the Republicans to call Hunter Biden? I could imagine the Republicans making a big thing of this and and You know a lot of people taking this seriously and saying Okay Democrats. You insist the Biden's did nothing wrong so there's nothing to investigate here. Let the guy be answering questions. I think there's probably two arguments that'll be used. You know whether or not people accept them is up to them. I think the first argument is that this this this is calling Hunter Biden focusing one hundred does reinforce exactly what Donald Trump wanted to get out of this which was questions about the Biden's but then secondarily it's not clear. The Hunter Biden can inform anything about how trump interact with Ukraine. The question isn't necessarily why he was making these requests of Ukraine and the question was what he did with Ukraine in the way that he tried to leverage power to. Do you saw Philip. BUMP national correspondent for the Washington Post among his. Many articles is a detailed time. Line of what. We've been calling the trump Ukraine Ukraine's scandal Starting with February twenty fourteen. Good reading if you want to dig that deep. Thank you for sharing so much of that were again listeners. You can call and ask an impeachment news question. Just leave a voicemail anytime including your name and where you're calling from and some of you will hear your questions on the show. The number is eight. Four four seven four five talk. That's eight four. Four seven four five talk or eight four four seven four five eight to five five impeachment. Daily podcast is excerpted from my live. Daily Radio Show which we also invite you to listen to. It's the Brian Lehrer show ten. AM to noon eastern time streaming live than at WNYC dot. Org See you tomorrow.

Ukraine Hunter Biden Donald Trump Ukraine president The Times Ukraine Ukraine Victor Shokhin Paul Manafort Russia Prosecutor General of Ukraine US Prosecutor Beau Biden trump Rudy Giuliani Philip trump State Department Odessa Ukraine prosecutor
US security assistance to Ukraine

PRI's The World

45:28 min | 11 months ago

US security assistance to Ukraine

"When trump administration held up four hundred million dollars in military aid to Ukraine Iranians felt letdown? We cannot say in Ukraine United States has some commitments to helps if talking honestly. US troops are are in Ukraine on a support mission in a remote part of the country. In general I'd miss a good ole hamburger. I'm miss a Burger. Also today Robbie Robertson formerly of the band had big dreams and big hurdles and on my new album cinematic. There's a song on their called dead kids that completely abeille refers to this period of you know people just saying that doesn't happen for people like us I'm Marco Werman. The stories are more today. Day here on the world. I'm Marco Werman. This is the world world four hundred million dollars in military aid for Ukraine that sits at the center of our impeachment. Saga Republicans in the House say the aid was only held up temporarily. No harm no foul. No Impeachment Democrats though are building a case that show that Donald Trump abused his power by using that aid as part of an extortion scheme. But but what's all that money actually four. We sent the world's Daniel off meant to Ukraine to find out at the impeachment hearings in Congress. We've heard a lot about the importance Of Ukraine Ukraine is partner of the United States. Important for the security of our country Ukraine success is very much in our org. National Interest Secure Democratic and Free Ukraine serves not just the Ukrainian people but the American people three American diplomats. There William Taylor Taylor George. Ken and Maria Vich testifying in the house. US military support for Ukraine goes back to two thousand fourteen. When Russia illegally annexing annex Crimea and then invaded the Dome Bust region of eastern Ukraine? We cannot stand by one the sovereignty and territorial integrity of nations flagrantly violated. That happens uh-huh without consequence in Ukraine. It could happen to any nation gathered here today. That's President Barack Obama speaking at the United Nations in two thousand fifteen fifteen all in all the US has given more than one point. Five Billion Dollars Insecurity assistance to Ukraine night vision goggles advanced radar technology first aid kits vehicles and most deadly of all javelin anti-tank missiles the US military also has boots on the ground training in Ukrainian forces. George can't talk about that. In the impeachment inquiry similar to von Steuben training colonials at Valley Forge US and NATO allied trainers develop the skills of Ukrainian units at Yaba Reef near the Polish border and elsewhere. I traveled to you avenue by train to see what the US Ukraine Military Tori partnership looks like the base is in the western part of the country in army lingo. It's called J. M. T. G. U. or joint multinational training group Ukraine. Hey Nice to meet you. Nice to meet you as well. The checkpoint outside the Base I meet twenty one year old specialist Alexander Wilkinson Johnson. This isn't just his first deployment. It's his first time abroad. So it's it's a bit of a culture shock that did a lot of research beforehand. And so I'm really really interested in culture and understanding different languages different peoples and what goes into that so but there have been some cultural challenges in general. I miss a good all hamburger. I'm miss a Burger. You don't get much here. You get a lot of chicken. You get a lot a a lot of pork but no beef. Wilkinson Johnson is with the Wisconsin Army National Guard so as Major Katie Barich. Actually I'm Katherine Bridge by by Katie Bridge. Katie Eighty Birch is my brand. The Guard troops from Wisconsin. Just arrived a couple weeks back but says it didn't take long to settle in my husband's like what does it look Mike. I'm like honey. It looks just like McCoy few. There's a training facility McCoy Wisconsin. It's weird how it looks like Fort Mccoy and I said the weather's like Fort McCoy the trees the grass. Everything is the same just on the opposite side of the world on this morning. In Yavapai of the troops are taking part in a handover ceremony. Wisconsin National Guard is here to replace troops from the hundred and first Airborne Division. These rotations have been going on for five years. Ladies and Gentlemen Commander of Task Force Juvenile and the joint multinational group Ukraine. Colonel John Oakley Doberman Dan. Ns Day Clinic. John Oakley the stated mission is to play a mentor. Ship role here Ukraine has aspirations of joining joining NATO So. US forces are helping Ukraine's military modernize. This is a training mission. But there's also a war going on with Russia though. The front lines are five hundred miles to the east after the ceremony ends. I ask some of the American officers about their mission. Why should Americans back home care about the effort and the cooperation between US military in Ukraine military building partnerships is all about what America's about working together to make Ukraine better better and help them defend their sovereignty? That's Lieutenant Colonel Michael. Hanson Hanson is happy to talk about Ukrainian sovereignty. But when I asked him about the war in the east about Russia he steers clear. Well there many threats from both state and non-state actors throughout the entire world and again. It's not just Ukraine. It's everyone has that same threat. I put put the same question to Colonel John. Oakley who's with the Wisconsin National Guard is there discussion specifically about what's going on in the war in the east No there is not in other words. Don't ask and the same goes for. US military aid that was temporarily withheld from Ukraine by the trump administration has any of the discussion in about withholding US aid been frustrating for the effort. That's going on here. Well that's beyond my capability to answer. That's not part part of why we're here. We're here to build readiness for the Ukraine military. And that's what we stay focused on for the troops. I speak with politics holding the aid impeachment. All of that is just a distraction for Ukrainians. Though it's a different story the warned the East is very real and it's connected to the political scandal. In America. Ukrainian soldiers are fighting and dying more than thirteen thousand Ukrainians have been killed since two thousand fourteen support of the United United States. It's very important because of the international positioning off Ukrainian capabilities to fight with Russia. That's Mikhail Mikhail Assam Lewis. He's a military analyst at a think tank in Kiev. He's a veteran himself and when I asked him about the. US withholding security aide. He says it's a big deal when you're planning something at especially during the war and you have some problems with health. It means that your plan won't work at all but of course it will be more psychologically and politically problem when we understand it. The strongest friend started to disrupt these assistance and support some says the. US is still Ukraine's strongest friend. But at the moment things could change and the country could find itself alone if if Ukraine will be along for Russia philby easier to show that it's not a problem it'll when will occupy key for example when United States help us. It means that United States issue Sam responsibility for supporting Ukrainian dreams about independence that is full independence from Russian meddling and military aggression SAMA says. US support is critical but the political crisis. That's playing at an America right now. Makes him more realistic we. We cannot say in Ukraine it United States has some commitments to help us. If it talking honestly I think. The Ukrainian nation has to fight for Ukrainian nation back at the military base. Everyone tells me the. US Ukraine partnership is as strong. As ever I would like the Ukrainians to know that They've got my full support. That specialist Alexander Wilkinson Johnson again. The Guy who misses hamburgers. What's important Jordan is that I'm here and I'm here to good? I asked him why he enlisted in the first place. My brother is currently in the air force and when I went down down to see him graduate I saw a formation calling cadence and I love cadence. I don't know why it will always get stuck in my head and I thought to myself. I WANNA be a part of that and if you don't know what cadences drills it's it's the drill sergeant when okay so I'll leave elite right now. Okay so everywhere aware I go. There's a drills on their side Wilkinson. Johnson that's major bridge and staff. Sergeant Samuel Som- This is not his first overseas mission for someone to play. Bits two thousand seven. I was in a unit one. Seventy thirty everyone brigade combat team. It was a brigade gate. Had the first living medal of honor recipient for combat operations and then they had two more so that should tell you that they were in some of the worst fighting that Afghanistan had to offer. Along with fighting comes Not necessarily that great memories but here in Ukraine at least for Staff Sergeant Psalm. The story is different. He he feels that this mission will offer only positive memories in part because at least for the US. This isn't about combat. I also feel very keenly a heart for Ukrainians because their country quite frankly was attacked. They were attacked. And that's a big deal to me. I understand that I feel that. In my own heart and so I would say the Ukrainians the Americans are here for a reason. We're here to help train. We're here to help you. So take advantage of that for the American troops. I talk with the Ukraine scandal and impeachment story back home can can feel irrelevant and very far away but major bridge tells me. They depend heavily on help from back home. My youngest son's first year in high school when my community members said to me. If you need help getting paint basketball practice or school pictures you know. Let me know it's it's it's very. It's very moving and humbling ambling when people do that for you because you don't think that you are worthy that and and I don't take for granted ever the support from family and friends. I can't week we cannot do what we do unless we have the support of our families I ask for American support for Ukraine. This is a pivotal moment just this morning. President Trump said quote. Why should we give money to a country? That's known own corrupt. It's a very corrupt country. That's not what Ukrainians want to hear next month. Ukraine's President Valona Mursal. Linski will have his first face-to-face efface meeting with Russian President Vladimir Putin to talk about ending the war for the World Daniel Offman Yavuz give Ukraine. Next week we'll hear more from Daniel when he reports on veterans of the war in eastern Ukraine. It's been a tough week for the British Royal Family and it's not getting much better high profile. British organizations continue to distance themselves from the Duke of York better known as Prince. Andrew the Queen's second son today the English National Ballet the Royal Philharmonic Orchestra and London Metropolitan University all said the prince will no longer be their patron this after Prince Andrew gave the BBC and interview about his his friendship with convicted sex offender. Jeffrey Epstein who died by suicide in August Prince Andrew says he is willing to help with continuing investigations into Epstein. If required wired attorney Lisa Bloom says he should help bloom represents five of Epstein alleged victims. Anybody who has had a lot of interaction with them should speaking not only to law enforcement but to the lawyers for the victim's people like me who are doing investigations. I also think documents should be turned over emails. Texts calendars phone logs travelogues. So that we can get to the bottom of this. Prince Andrew's stepped back from duties week for the foreseeable future. That's polite light. Royal speak for getting fired and with that Prince Andrew Loses his taxpayer funded salary Angela. Levin is a biographer of the royals and a commentator. He won't be you getting the sovereign grant which is worth about quarter of a million. He gets that each year to pay for his offices and clothes and all sorts of things that are needed to help opin function. Don't worry about the prince though you'll continue to get an allowance from his mother the Queen for about the same amount this morning. Prince Andrew was photographed riding horseback back with his mother on the grounds of Windsor Castle. Historian Robert Lacey thinks that while the prints may remain close to his mother there will not be a return to royal duties. Just Imagine Agean in five years ten years fifteen years time is any charity on British university. Going to want Prince Andrew as patron he. He has been de Roiled. One of Jeffrey Epstein's accusers Virginia. Jefferey says she was also forced to have sex with Prince Andrew. He denies this a much anticipated. Primetime BBC interview is your fray is scheduled to be broadcast in the UK in ten days. You're listening to the world. I'm Marco Werman you're with the world. The trump administration changed four decades of US policy in the Middle East this week secretary state. Mike pompeo announced that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are not in violation of international law. Israeli settlers hoped the shift will encourage bridge more settlements than eventually perhaps even full annexation of the West Bank critics of the move fear precisely that I spoke with two people living in the West Bank an and Israeli settlers and a Palestinian. They live only five miles apart. Aaron Lipkin is a spokesperson for the settlement of Affreux the first Israeli settlement in the West Bank so Erin how do you feel about this latest announcement from the US on the settlements. Will this change anything in your view. It won't change anything really Directly but but we hope that when when there will be an Israeli government That that declaration by the US administration will will Will basically pave the way for a partial or full annexation of Judea Samaria to Israel After there's so many years of of you know being in limbo between Possible listed in state or something else. So how do you feel about a two state solution. Well I obviously I oppose it for many reasons by the way not just me. I'm in touch with many Palestinians. Living around me my neighbors And many of them really really voice their opinion sang that they are also against the Palestinian state. Many of them are saying very openly that they are four Israeli sovereignty that can very popular popular opinion among Palestinians. Oh that must be just a few people. Will that specific opinion that I just told you. is is is represented by part of over the Palestinian population And here in Israel on the left wing that has been promoting the two state solution idea. You also hear people saying that. It's yeah no longer realistic with almost half a million Jews living into the end scenario. You can't realistically think about about transferring this population this in this specific ethnic population out of the area so we really need to look forward. Look to the future and find another solution. I also wanted the reaction action from Samba. You're he's a Palestinian American businessman living in Ramallah. I asked him how Palestinians are feeling about the trump administration's announcement. I feel very. Oh you pressed to be honest with you. I'm not surprised because this is not the first step that trump is taken In his series of acts to try to bring the Palestinians leans into submission a lot of the younger generation are saying good finding the. US has made public what we have known in seen for the last forty years which is that the US is fully behind the Israeli settlement movement. And those younger people are basically saying the two state solution is over. And and they're contemplating a very serious way dropping the bid for statehood and converting this to a civil rights struggle between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River River. And what would that civil rights struggle look like. The default reaction of the younger Palestinians will be. Okay Israel you win you get it all you get Israel the West Bank and US now. We heard you had free healthcare. Where do we pick up our medical cards? That's what it would look like if the Palestinians dropped their bid for statehood statehood. That's a reality that is cannot live in. And that's why I think it's not a feasible reality today. So what is life like today on the ground in the West Bank bank or as Aaron Lipkin refers to the territory Judea and Samaria its biblical name situation. That you think is probably the best was ever. I'm not saying that life here is normal. Both Jews and Arabs are living under military control of the end Samaria. That is not normal and we need to. We need to stop that the way to stop that is not what declare another failing Arab nation states. The right thing to do is to next to the Dan Samaria Israel and declare full sovereignty. The reason why we're living here is is because we see this as land that was promised to our forefathers there's in the Bible and and so no matter what happens around us Our roots are deep in this in this soil. In this lamb. I am furious. I mean there's two settlements that surround my house that Sam Bahar again. The Palestinian businessmen the settlement of is good and the settlement of Bait and right beyond them as the settlement of Ofra. So I have three settlements around my home to that I can see and my family has lands lands that these settlements are built and all the sudden the US from Washington DC is saying sorry that private property is is no longer yours it is now a citizen of Israel that has the rights to that land we we spoke earlier with an Israeli settler. Living in Ofra who said that life today in the West Bank is the best it's ever been for both Jews and Arabs Arabs. He said hey villas Many have comfortable lives. They drive. Nice cars do you agree with that statement. They completely dismissed inequality. The issue here is not how we driver while we drive the issues political rights human rights. If that's settler is okay sitting on my property disrupting my life taking an entire budget to support his presence presence illegally in the West Bank that I think he's living in La La land because that cannot be sustainable. Anyone today who loves the state of Israel and doesn't speak up is basically watching Israel enter its own demise because it is driving drunk on power but what would it mean if Palestinians in the West Bank suddenly became citizens of Israel again Israeli settler. Aaron Lipkin I do see them being citizens or or maybe it at the beginning residents so like being having green cards at the beginning and then after showing loyalty to Israel they will become full which citizens if they choose to or or stay residents like the Arabs in east Jerusalem. Very very similar to people living in Puerto Rico And not being being able to vote for the US elections So they're they're many will they have the right to vote. Well I personally believe that. That's that's the that's stig's acting that needs to be done. The people that live into the scenario both Arabs and Jews should have a normal life like every any blame anyone in the World Sam over the past few years we've witnessed a decline in support for a two state solution among Palestinians and Israelis so if that whole two state solution concept gives way to a a single state called Israel but a state that guarantees equal rights. Would you support that. If the Palestinian community voted to change the definition of self-determination away from statehood and to a civil rights struggle I would however if it became reality that a one state solution solution is where we are heading. Yes I can accept civil rights and I think it would make my job as someone who tries to articulate the Palestinian struggle abroad. Much more easier if I go to Savannah Georgia to- Peop- I wanNA build a state. That's a complicated discussion. But if I go to Savannah and say I need your support so I can sit in the same buses buses and Israeli drew. I think that would resonate much more easier. If Israel can't swallow that then they're going to have to swallow me sitting on a bus with them and maybe living in Tel Ah vs that was Samba and Aaron Lipkin sharing some perspectives of Palestinian and in Israeli living in the West Bank Secretary of state. Mike Pompeo this week made the announcement that Israeli settlements in the West Bank are not in violation of international law opening the way for more settlement. Construction you're listening to the world. President trump has a message for South Korea. Hey AAC for the. US troops stationed there. There is this whole question of whether trump actually wants to make a profit off of. US forces abroad Which would essentially turn turn us into mercenaries and that's not what the US military is? Some are calling this a Christmas present for Kim Jong Un. That's coming up here on the world. I'm Marco Werman and you're with the world where a CO production of the BBC World Service W. B. H. Boston Pri Npr X.. The children of Isis supporters are heading home from Syria back to Europe. The British government has been slow to establish a policy but is now taking in one a group of children it is potentially a big deal that could set a precedent for other countries in Europe. The World Sharon Jaffar is here to tell us more. What do we know about these children? Sharon these these are three kids who were born to British parents who had gone to Syria to fight for all support the Islamic state or lot minogue from save. The children told told me she can't share the names because of privacy concerns but she said they're all very young all under the age of ten and she said that parents had died lied in fighting in Syria and they had been orphaned eventually. They ended up in the hands of Kurdish forces. Who kept them in a camp called Al a hole in northeastern Syria? This camp is very close to the Syrian Turkish border and it came under attack last month when the US announced that it's moving. His troops troops out of the area and Turkish forces started to move in there was absolute chaos and there were a lot of concern about the safety of these children. Humanitarian in groups pressured the British government to get these kids out and according to the BBC The United Nations went inside and got the kids out and and then later they were handed over to British delegation. What is the discussion in the UK about returning these kids? This is a very complicated and controversial issue no not just in the UK but in a lot of the countries from which these people weren't joined the Islamic state it's hard to shore up sympathy for people WPRO who left their countries to go fight alongside a terrorist group politicians. Also say this is a very risky move to bring back people with connections to the Islamic state state but when it comes to children it's a little bit different because the argument there is that children didn't really have any say in who their parents supported and that they deserve to be given a chance at a better life for example the British Foreign Secretary Dominic Robb said that these children are innocent and they should have never been subjected to the horror of war in the first place so bit kids countries are a little bit more willing to show sympathy on compassion. So when these kids actually land in the UK. What's going to happen to them? WHO's GonNa take care of them well? They're not going to be detained. Bizarre kids some of them have relatives like say grandparents or aunts and uncles. who advocated for the return and who you know will likely take care of them? The three children agent who arrived in the UK. This morning have been reconnected with relatives according to the BBC but as you can imagine Michael these children have been through so so much in some cases the witness their parents or siblings being killed so they are very likely traumatized and they need a lot of attention and support. That's what Orelon monarch from saith. The children told me in our we expect that they will need support with mental health and psychosocial care in order to recuperate and to To have a happy childhood which they which they deserve so we're hoping that the UK will now take steps to put those support mechanisms in place for these children have been repatriated but also for the children that are yet to be repatriated monoxide. That there are still sixty more British children in the camps in Syria living in very tough conditions and are there other countries taking children like these three kids back yeah France Denmark and Norway have but interestingly just today as these three children were headed to the UK. An appeals court in The Hague in the Netherlands said that the Dutch government is not required to take back children who lived under the Islamic excite. This decision was completely against what a lower court had decided earlier this month so there are a lot of different opinions here. It'll be really interesting to see what different countries he's decided to do on this. The Wilshire and Jafari thank you. You're welcome in Russia. There's a youtube video series called real talk. Children interview adults about about their lives. Diversity and inclusion are big themes then someone named Maxine punk resolve agreed to take part in real talk to answer questions about his life as a gay man. Now he and the video's producers are accused of violating a law banning the promotion of homosexuality to children. And that's lead to serious consequences for them as the BBC Sour Raynsford now reports from Moscow with pay. Did you ever like goes to turn gave. uh-huh Kiki's such extreme. I'm watching this video. Where children take it in turns to ask a young gay man questions about his life life and his sexuality brightly colored? The children are sitting opposite maxime and it all seems really relaxed but ever since the deputy in parliament here complains a please. The people behind this video have gone into hiding. I've got the actual notification from investigators here that they've opened a criminal. Oh case and that they think that this video could actually amount to sexual assault on this document they use words like debauched and they claim that the questions are meant to arouse rouse the children's sexually and because of this maxime and the producer. I've been getting death threats. We met maxine outside Moscow escape. But he doesn't want me to say where he is for now is on your boarding those nothing about sex in the video. I just talked about my life but this article article of law is basically pedophilia. It's mad that is lost. Everything my families. Those love me and I don't think I'll be able to live in Russia now by this by this point is is filled with tears and then he tells me about the threats very do the comments like burn in Hell people right you should be impaled people like me should be killed at the minded. Tell me why he wants to take part in this project. The net below Chin version of societies. That it was important for me because I was always teased and called codenames at school at University in life generally so it was important to show the Dow really am a normal person San Diego. It is motor show. This is the youtube channel of the popular. Young Blogger called FICA peach and she produced the Q.. Hugh and David With maxine. I've had a look at our channel and it's all about music and beauty tips but ever since speaker arranged for for children to Chapter Maxime. uh-huh life is changed totally. She fled the country after she was questioned by investigators could did agree to talk to me. Online versity those. No I knock when I found out about the criminal case the Earth Thou- from beneath my feet. I do not see. It's twelve to twenty years in prison so I didn't hesitate. I dropped everything and they just left the country I. It's six years now since Russia. Banned what it calls promoting homosexuality to children amid lots of talk about family values breaking that role can get you find finds Unin this much more conservative climate that there is here now. That is quite common but fica says she never expected criminal prosecution voice. `Coco Moco Frank was meant to be a nice project. You need to speak to children explain. That people are different. But that doesn't mean they're bad had be all of New York when asked the Kremlin spokesman about the case which human rights watchers called absurd. Third Dmitry Peskov said it wasn't the Kremlin's business to Judge International. Investigative Committee didn't comment either. The museum is not just maxime and FICA. You've been affected. Natalia leukaemia has also been called in for questioning and she started social services. Ervices pay her a visit after her son took part in a video even though she was on sets the whole time. Hello my name is the C- I am from Russia. I am eleven seems totally unfazed but Natalia says had she known what would happen she would never have got involved and you should too. The investigators think this has damaged the child's mental health because a gay man talk to him with kisses staying. You could move on. I feel like I'm on the HR volcano. I don't know what to expect next. Well in some ways Maxim says this project has actually leaping positive that this thought at first I'd beat myself up thinking why do this but when I come down a bit I realized I I did the right thing but I even explained why maxine told me. He'd been bullied and confused as a teenager and had some very dark thoughts. What's but he says now young people who are struggling just like he did a found his words and that video supports this did it? My inbox Fox filled up with messages girls and Bush wrote to me and lots of them said. Thank you for talking about yourself. They told me I'd given them confidence and strength. Were concealed them. The videos being taken off line though now as investigators decide whether to charge him or the producer with sexual assault. BBC's Sarah Raynsford reporting there from Moscow. President Trump's sent a message to a key ally this week pay up South Korean lawmakers say the trump administration wants five billion dollars a year to cover the cost of US forces in South Korea. That's more than five times. What it currently pays a South Korean newspaper is also reporting that the US is now considering withdrawing a combat brigade? Washington denies this. Victor Child was director for Asian Asian Affairs and George W Bush's National Security Council. He's now vice. Dean of the Edmund Wall School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University Let's start with the basics why are US troops in South Korea. Remind us so. They've been there since the Korean War largely to prevent a second invasion by North Korea. But they're also there or as part of a broader US presence in commitment to free markets freedom of navigation in general stability in the most economically vibrant region another world today so the US pull its troops out of South Korea in nineteen forty nine and within a year. The North invaded I Know Twenty nineteen is not nineteen fifty but what are the dangers dangers that North Korea might attempt to coerce South Korea in some way if you as troops are withdrawn while I mean that's a very good point and question I mean this would be if if the reports are true. This would be the United States pulling forces from Korea over money at a time when the North Korean threat has not abated in the least in fact it has only grown more in terms of nuclear weapons and ballistic missiles and they still have a one point one million man army forward were deployed ready to attack. I mean to say that this would be a failure of the alliance would be an understatement and it in the end. It's about money which is important but in the context of national security. It's not the most important thing This is a sixty-six-year-old alliance. The South Koreans have fought with the United States in every every war. Since the Korean War South Korea had the third largest ground contingent in Iraq they had. PRT's Provincial Reconstruction Teams in Afghanistan. So so I mean. South Korea has done. It's fair shirt to work with the United States and help advance the US agenda around the world so US troops are there to deter North Korean aggression in that deterrence theoretically should keep the US from getting dragged into another war on the Korean Peninsula. I mean it's interesting South Korea as a US even though US troops troops are therefore American strategic benefit. That's a pretty good deal. So what's the problem for president trump. Well I think president trump believes that having these forces abroad. Rod is expensive for the United States. And that country's free ride off your security commitment and they use those savings to cheat us on trade They he has believed that for thirty something years. Even though most of that is factually inaccurate. I don't mean this to be facetious. But isn't trump getting good council from the Pentagon about the high cost of an actual war. Yeah I presume that he is but For trump I think it's all about leverage in a negotiation Russian and the reason for the five billion dollar demand which is politically impossible for South Korea. Five Times what they paid in the last agreement I think he feels like he has all the leverage because he can make this demand and if South Koreans don't agree he can threatened to pull forces so it doesn't surprise me that there are reports now that the United United States might Might actually draw down. How do you say protection racket in Korean? Yeah I mean there. Is this whole question. Sniff with trump actually wants to make a profit off of US forces abroad Which would essentially turn us into mercenaries in that's not what the US military is? It's interesting some south. Korean activists are in fact calling for a reduction in US forces even a full withdrawal. Why is that? What do they see as the benefit? So for Progressives it's ironic because progressives and trump may actually agree in the sense that trump may actually want this cauti- during negotiations fail by putting such an exorbitant urban price tag on it so that he would excuse for pulling troops and progressives in South Korea traditionally believed that South Korea should shed its relationship with the United States and and become more independent in terms of security decisions and so there. There's a small minority I think on the trump side and there's a small minority in Korea progressive decide. They may actually agree on an outcome of pulling troops from Korea. How is this tension right now? Being seen in North Korea. Do we have a sense. Oh I think the North Koreans would be more than happy to see the United States and its allies arguing over the cost of U. S. forces. And then the US threatened to pull out troops that in the end end goal is what North Korea wants and this should be like a big fat Christmas present for the North Korean leader. Victor Professor of government at Georgetown. Thank you as always. Thank you up on Cripple Creek. The night they drove old dixie down all American tunes from a mostly Canadian band. The band the abandoned its original lineup stopped touring nine hundred seventy six with a Thanksgiving concert in San Francisco. That would go down in history as the last Waltz Robbie Robertson and was a founding member of the band. He's a son of Toronto and was recently handed. The key to that city Robbie Robertson's background. Well I guess my heritage heritage is was unusual enough blowing up. You know when kids would say you know. Yeah I'm Irish or I'm this around that and they'd say and what have are you and I'd say well you know and a half Indian have Jewish and they'd be like your watch when Robertson went solo. His songwriting writing revealed more of who he is songs like broken Arrow. But let's go back to nineteen sixty. When Robertson was sixteen in his memoir memoir testimony he talks about grabbing guitar and hopping on a train for an audition in Arkansas? He wrote people from my background. Didn't hardly know how to dream. You know I was just used to you know in some ways being from Canada you know beside the United States in the United had states seemed like it was the center of the universe and Canada wasn't and so there was always a bit of that like thank you know you're you're an outsider just being from Canada so that was part of it and in growing up you you know with me saying you know Wow One of these days I'M GONNA go up in the world. I'm going to write music and I'm going to play Music Sake. I'm GonNa Perform everywhere and I'm GonNa do this and do that. And most people looked at me like you know that I was just I A dreamer and all of this stuff was I was just GonNa get my heart broken on my new album cinematic. There's a song on their called dead. End Kid it completely refers to this period of people just saying that doesn't happen for people like us and you're going to be very disappointed and I was like I can't hear you I'm on a mission addition a probably end up Darren on a dead end kid the song I mean it it gets right at your upbringing and I mean like a lot of your music. there's a story there. Do you consider yourself storyteller. Is it easier to write about say Robert e Lee or the WS Wolcott medicine. Show which you have than it is to write about yourself? I do consider myself a storyteller and I learned that at the six nations Indian reserve. You know that in that. I witnessed elders. That told stories. That just went right deep into my soul and I thought when I grow up one of these days I want to be able to do that. Thanks Okay No cure now. I don't have the guys in the band with me. I have to share stories stories when I was working with them. I was really writing song for them to sing about stories that I wanted to tell tell but I was casting them as the singers as the voices of the story that I wanted to tell in addition to your memoir from two thousand sixteen and your new album cinematic. There's a new documentary out about the band. It's called once were brothers. There's also a song on your new album called once for brothers on both the song. And the documentary are about your former bandmates three of them. Richard Manuel Rick. Danko and leave on him are gone. But you've had so many the different people over the years who you must consider brothers and I suspect they also come and go perhaps not as permanently as Richard and Ricken leave on. Now that you're seventy any sex. How long had this song been fermenting inside you being part of this Brotherhood with these guys in the band on what a special special special relationship we had and in this song once for brothers a came out of me because it is? We were working on this documentary and I was going back and remembering some of the extraordinary experiences that we had together together for others Path you know on the cold. We were talking a moment ago about songs things that are stories. And I I think of the weight one of your legacy story song compositions There's a recent rendition of the weight with the rotating cast of musicians from this group. The playing for change. And you open the Song Guitar Intro. And then we hear from as playing for change often does with the with the music is international lineup. artists from in Congo Bahrain Japan Nepal Jamaica Ringo Starr on drums. I mean it's a very cool rendition. Why did you want to do the playing for change treatment? And were you pleased with what you heard at the end. Well this was my son. Sebastian's idea so I was just following his lead on this and then everybody joined in globally around the world and in these times. That's a great feeling. We like the idea of embracing thing one another and from around the world being able to join together. On this Song I love it Robbie Robertson's new solo album album. Cinematic is out this weekend. He'll be a special guest in Nashville to commemorate the band's historic farewell concert the last waltz. And that's going to do it for us this week from the Nanna Bill Harris Studio at WB here in Boston. I'm Marco Werman have yourselves a great weekend. We'll be back with you here on Monday as it has to follow and he said I will fix your rack. Few take wait a minute that look cable. The world is a CO production of W. G. B. H. Boston the BBC World Service Pri and barracks

United States Ukraine President Trump Marco Werman BBC US Ukraine Military Tori President South Korea Of Ukraine Ukraine Robbie Robertson Mike pompeo Israel Free Ukraine Alexander Wilkinson Johnson North Korea United Nations NATO Russia UK Daniel Offman Yavuz
Trump business connections in Turkey, Ukraine raise new concerns

AM Joy

1:24:05 hr | 1 year ago

Trump business connections in Turkey, Ukraine raise new concerns

"Yup Yup swimmers stick Lusa scope the rest of leto strip nippy nicotine of trump this is Ukraine note that it is John Enormous Ukraine declared independence from Russia two years after the fall to keep Russia at Bay Ukraine also had a lot of old the old Soviet Union's military nukes which they destroyed when they went independent the arrest of two Soviet borne associates of Rudy Giuliani blockbuster testimony to Congress by former ambassador plus a possible in control of the country's natural resources trump's former campaign chairman Paul Manafort who now sits in prison earned millions doing private Business Act Ukraine is a word that literally means Borderland in the southern part of it stretches across the Black Sea a key water out for ferrying oil and natural central to the many many many scandals that we've all been living with since Donald trump became the Republican presidential nominee in two thousand sixteen now in twenty sixteen the so when it left it made mother Russia a lot smaller though is still pretty huge it also sits right on the border separating Russia from Europe in Berlin Wall in one thousand nine hundred nine and ever since Russia has been not just mad but big mad and you imagine why Ukraine is well it's huge its former territory and still occupies the part that sticks out into the Black Sea called Crimea and twenty fourteen causing the international sanctions that have been good morning and welcome to a. m. joy well we have a lot to get to this morning including the latest on the US abandoning Kurdish forces in Syria often independent state and started making noises about getting Chubbier with Europe and NATO which is why the US funds Ukraine with hundreds of millions of dollars and to the delight of Western Fortune Hunters Ukraine both a lot of its own oil and natural gas which partly explains why Modern Day Ukraine is trump campaign made a single change to the entire RNC platform just one watering-down language the call for the protection of Ukraine from Russia which had invaded devils Vladimir Putin and Donald Trump ever since now since the Cold War Ukraine has also been corruption central with various oligarchs and presidents grasp asked to Europe which is Russia's biggest customer for the stuff that keeps the lights on Russia and Ukraine haven't exactly been the friendliest of neighbors since Ukraine declared those oligarchs and helped to elect and consulted for Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych for nearly a decade by the way in a Kovic was Super Kosa Russia and the criminal investigation of former New York mayor and current trump. TV lawyer Rudy Giuliani. But I I want to step back and take talk just a little bit out to countries that have been at the center of your end frankly my life for now going on four years and which are both connected to each other by Donald Very very corrupt and when he was ousted in a people's revolution in two thousand fourteen called the revolution of Dignity Kovic fled to Russia then Ukraine is at the center of the bonkers right wing conspiracy theory that Russia didn't really attack our election in two thousand sixteen but rather that Ukraine did and that the collusion was not with Donald Trump's campaign but it's also been the draw of oil and natural gas money that is the draw that really put Ukraine on the map for would be new school oligarchs including American ones but with Hillary Clinton's Ukraine has proved rich not just in conspiracy theories but also in opportunities for Westerners looking to make a post-soviet buck including political operatives like Manafort and one time chief strategist for the two thousand Sixteen Bernie Sanders Campaign Tad Devine who worked with Manta Court to elect Yanukovych S. trump seeks dirt on Hunter Biden's role with Ukrainian gas company now's Democrats are seeking documents about whether Energy Secretary Rick Perry pushed Ukraine the stuff up and then there's the second country thrown into the mix and that is Turkey here it is smack in the middle between Europe. Russia appears that the part of the scandal that could lead to Donald Trump's impeachment centers on some of those corrupt individuals looking to profit off Ukraine's energy sector even why is it that Ukraine is so central and so important really to Russia in such that it has gotten out fraud guarantee that Rudy Giuliani worked for and the other owns in Odessa nightclub called not being but mafia rave you really just put trump friendly Americans on the board of the state owned gas and Oil Company in Ukraine called Nafta Gas in the two Giuliani cronies one Ukrainian born Ukraine and Turkey he's also the author of a memoir a mind unraveled. Kurt great to talk with you okay I want to read to you a bit of your national security let's talk about both of these two countries and how they kind of figure into the plot that we are all sort of trying to unravel through impeachment coming up let's start with Ukraine option in stupidity but Ukraine is so important because it is a main access to the Black Sea which is where unit of the autocrat who runs Turkey aired on Flynn ultimately pled guilty to lying to the FBI about his context with Russia and his secret lobbying on have a situation where the United States is viewed thanks to Donald Trump as another enemy of Ukraine in fact last week when control of Russia Russia has been trying to destabilize Ukraine for a long time they are still fighting Ukraine and now you have they're reliable partner well I also have I have a little conflict of interest because I have a major major building and his son Bul that it's a tremendously successful Giuliani his cronies and Donald trump into so much trouble above the reason they're in trouble is because they're engaged in almost a hat trick of special forces out of northern Syria and abandon our Kurdish allies a big boost Turkey and Russia and we're going to get to that later in the show and it Turkey is also home to trump tower Estan Bul an office block in apartment complex that shoots millet to multi-storey mall now here's Donald Trump bragging about it to his one time campaign manager Steve Bannon in the Middle East now it's the other country that ran trump work into trouble when trump's first national security adviser General Michael Flynn allegedly plotted the kidnapping of an so job it's called trump towers towers instead of one not the usual one it's to join me now it's Kurt Wall has written extensively about Donald Trump's business dealings the main people behind an anti corruption group in Kev said will now we have the United States is really no different than Russia but also the fact that it is a natural gas behemoth and Russia's still wants to control it because Russia as Rachel has said over and over again the only power allegedly work to get the ambassador to Ukraine fired because she wouldn't play ball and help Giuliani to dig up dirt on the Bites and one of them actually owns a company get this called in Belarus in both American citizens who were arrested this week are accused of a scheme to influence U. S. politics with illegal campaign contributions uh-huh politics this is where the stupidity comes in he's all obsessed with Fox News type conspiracy theories he's just not in on the on the radio in two thousand fifteen if you're like the president in prosecuting the war what do you do Turkey Turkey a reliable partner another NATO allies timber twenty-six peace and this was for Newsweek it was actually re tweeted by Hillary Clinton during the campaign and it was called how the trump organization foreign business ties could up end use the ports are the main sorts of western European gas as it's coming through the Black Sea Crimea is already Biden series of lies and you ultimately have a trump who is working to help his own ego and win for the game that it's all a lie and so he's spinning about Muller and serve DNC servers in the crate and you have the the a half of Turkey and trump's ties to are back in the news this week after trump had a phone call with the Turkish leader and abruptly announced that he would whisk be able to engage in energy blackmail of the entirety of Western Europe where Donald Trump falls into this is he doesn't he doesn't care about international they're both engaging and disinformation campaigns they're both destabilizing us I mean Rachel Maddow has a great new book called blowout in which she talks about the primacy of the oil twenty twenty and and truthfully the geopolitical consequences of what he's doing are too complex to worry about and that's the key to it but now saying that made it impossible for them to do business so I mean you kind of understand why Donald Trump cares about that donald trump and about a week later on out of nowhere arrests a senior executive with Togan Holdings and it was a very this morning you wrote that when faced with the prospect of losing the millions of dollars that flow into the trump organization each year from Istanbul property what Alan Gas businesses around the world and the way that they wind up corrupting governments and if you think about Ukraine thing that fascinates me about is about the size I think people don't give it's the biggest country in Europe it's giant I was told by a Middle Eastern source it was a very very planned effort to tell Donald Trump look what I can do and so these kinds of after he became president we already started seeing a Turkish President Erdogan start to basically threaten trump in a very very subtle flakes are massive and we may not see all the pieces moving but certainly does yeah and obviously trump does because one thing had been elected president he passed on you know good feelings from folks from Dolgen who he described as his business partners from there why do you think we've now seen that there is a connection between that financial interest in his behavior regarding Turkey oh absolutely I mean to be on it and he's making millions of dollars a year for his name to be on it and in his first phone call with John when he was he's about is his business and making sure that he continues to make money guest Kurt Kurt I can well thank you so much because somebody's trying to call me vision would president trump take on the important issues involving Turkish American relations including that that country's role in fighting against Isis Kinda got an answer to that so you're up at in two thousand sixteen did we now get the answer because trump does trump and his family let's not forget his kids vonk trumpet Cetera they've got business they're they're making money way one of the things trump makes this thing out to be like it's his development it's not it's the development of a group called Dogan Holdings they just paid for trump's name attorney Rudy Giuliani and his cronies Ivanovich gave nine hours of testimony to house Democrats leading the impeachment inquiry she testified in a model diplomat and deserve better than the shabby treatment she received from this president and from the secretary of state the model Ls incredulous that the US government chose to remove an ambassador based as best as I can tell on unfounded and false claims by people with clearly let's go to Turkey because I wanna read the part you're actually two thousand sixteen piece that Secretary Hillary Clinton retreated was really about Turkey Donald Trump's interest in Turkey it's one of the main reasons that I wanted to defiance of the White House and the State Department who had ordered government officials not to cooperate with Congress and her testimony was scathing which we the people who are not in government people who were associated with the president's lawyer it's it's not just unusual joy it's outrageous and actually the era of news text. MSNBC to six eight six six to subscribe I just sat through eight hours that went like I since the summer of two thousand eighteen we now know that there was a senator involved in that group of people who wanted to be put aside who's inexperienced and so the idea was let's just keep a season you know Ukraine watcher somebody who knows Ukraine really well in place and then just within a matter of months because of these two random cowboy guys she's yanked out of there and she she knew why I mean clearly she knew but she I wanted to learn that too and I tried to find out I met with Deputy Secretary of State John Sullivan who informed me of the cartel amount of my time he said that the president had lost confidence. Hi It's Katy Tur want to keep up with MSNBC while you're on the go subscribe to the Msnbc daily newsletter you'll get the best of what you've missed during this unprecedented Matt that Congressman Schiff was speaking of is Marie Ivanovich a decades long career diplomat who was the US ambassador to you crate until she was ousted at the urging of Donald Trump's person may ninth two thousand eighteen was addressed directly to pump Pale the secretary of state the short three-paragraph letter asks Pompeo to consider terminating Nevada embassador ship and find men also arranged a donation to Congressman Pete sessions is that at all normal for the way that the government the federal government normally functions no I mean obviously people donate money to members of Congress who are running for office and expect favors and you know depending on what they want if it's legal oh because she released her opening statement just as her secret deposition was about to get underway it reads in part although I understand that I served at the pleasure of the President I was never New York soccer it was that amazing that powerful impactful and just feel very fortunate to have been there I think she has been for in the only kind of pull they have is they could turn the lights off in Europe they could cut off the oil and so they really want to have a port to the Black Sea as you said to be able to get oil and gas out double motives joining me now is Evelyn Farkas former deputy assistant secretary of defense for Russia Ukraine and Eurasia thanks for being here Evelyn thanks joy it's great to be here going on if you remember you you outlined the history of Ukraine there was a transition going on in their government and there was a new we have now this new president's Alinsky running Ukraine visit a completely different realm because one of the things you have is you're creating a circumstance where Russia if they gain control of Ukraine look at the timeline she was asked by the State Department presumably by the Secretary of state to extend her tour into twenty twenty because there was a transition the statement she had never disparaged president trump publicly or privately and that makes sense to me knowing her as I do know her from having worked in government with her and then even after she was placement as soon as possible because sessions wrote that he had received concrete evidence from too close companions that ambassador you've spoken privately and repeatedly about her quickly against the administration we were frustrated in Congress with amount of activity that was going on with replacing ambassadors and it was after I was out of government working with her you know she's not the type of person to do that she's a professional she knows that she serves at the pleasure of the president whoever sitting in that in that Oval Office thank you and so I wanted to ask you first of all how unusual would it be for a career diplomat an ambassador such as Mr von to be removed from her position at the behest take a listen in mid-february urine more saw and so is Rudy Giuliani during your time there did you meet with Giuliani Crane do you trust Mike Pompeo to do anything to protect the State Department from Donald Trump and his cronies I mean joy I'm really this saddens me get you fired I mean it's outrageous yeah and let me play very quickly what Pete sessions with Congressman Sessions said to an NBC affiliate are affiliated Dallas last Sunday about this thirty former state and national security officials who've gotten together reading in a letter an open letter calling on Secretary of State Mike Pompeo actually defend the former to accomplish the mission Mike Pompeo was on the phone call that is going to be the core of the impeachment of Donald Trump phone call to the new president of me and no longer wished me to serve as ambassador he added that there had been a concerted campaign against me and that the department had been under pressure from the president to remove me you know I don't talk about who I meet with I went to worse offer particular purpose so you're not going to say whether you met with him so when I was in Warsaw I have to say this we wrote this letter to Secretary Pompeo so our hope when we wrote it was before this interview which by the way I have to praise the journalists because ETA singular focus focus was singly on the work that we have done it sounds like you're not going to say when I was in Warsaw we were working diligently fine but this was highly inappropriate highly unusual and it was also according to Ambassador von ally because she had never disparage she says of this random renegade operation but frankly speaking joy if I could just say one other thing I've said for a while now that Sunderland was read the transcript I haven't seen it but she was really asking great questions respectfully and he was dodging all of them and that's disturbing because if you on the show which is really a fascinating coming thank you very much for being here really appreciate it they want to talk to you probably Fridays exposed when you think you've heard from the former ambassador t crane that's nice odds that question then you're implicitly admitting yes I talked to Giuliani yes I met with Giuliani so it's it's unsettling because he's taking the side awesome she was very much against the administration did not represent them and spoke then sent a letter and here it is this is obtained by NBC News they went to Pete Sessions Representative Pete sessions not senator and he wrote a letter the letter written by on congressional letterhead on were the two people who were just arrested who are Giuliani's associates who went to a senator in the senator is named Pete sessions a congressman sorry Congressman Pete sessions that push and was one of those pieces of feedback that are gave okay so he's standing by what he did now meanwhile just want to play that that was his response to everything you are among nearly acting with the knowledge and probably the instructions of Secretary Pompeo that's what I'm worried about because he says in his messaging back to the ambassador in Ukraine more recently so the fact that these two citizens I mean it's like your your uncle Joe could go over to Ukraine and make something up send a letter to a member of Congress asser defend Misiones Rich I wanNA play you a sound bite of Mike Pompeo and he's speaking also to an NBC affiliate in Nashville on Friday to see whether you think that he will actually do you all are asking for the current administration in a way that might call for the expulsion of Mr von image a US ambassador to Ukraine immediately we also know that the two men were now arrested Giuliani's associates these then also to put throw dirt on the on the on the Ukrainian government with regard to two thousand sixteen he was I believe acting with the knowledge of secretary expected to be deposed next week the trump administration has done a couple of things one is that they've essentially said don't comply they said that everyone should not comply Miss Ivanovich I was shocked as she should have been yeah let me read a little bit more of this statement because it really was scathing what she wrote a Ivanovich wrote you will understand we want to ask why am I posting ended so suddenly general is now re upping an investigation up classifying formerly non classified material in order to create investigations against people in the State Department going back defied them and complied and turned up and actually spoken gave information so my first question is do you expect others to follow suit now the cheese shown that you can have some curry to Hillary Clinton's emails are actually there are ways that people could wind up in William bars sites if they comply yes oh joy the real big picture issue here is that you have a problem with this talk to S. which secretary pompeo which is to say that Sandra Lynch who was running this renegade operation to try to get dirt on on on vice president there are season diplomats are leaving the State Department this has been happening for a while and now we're at a crisis level if you lose experience it's really hard to put it all back for NBC enjoys vans professor at the University of Alabama School of law and contributor to MSNBC all right well thank you my legal eagles here let's start with this question Donald Trump I think people should really pay attention to the way that people are being run out of the Department of State and other professionals out of the government Evelyn you're going to be back in our next hour so thank you very much and we'll see in a little bit the investigation is being conducted by the FBI is New York field office and prosecutors in the southern just of Yorker Ironically Rudolph Giuliani used to be an attorney which is this search and coming up trump and rudy the bus they're about to try to throw each other under that is next crazy but anyway let's start with you first on this question joys if Rudolph Giuliani is being investigated for a potential criminal conspiracy from ABC News they relationship with these two men is now the subject of a potential criminal investigation the business relationship read from ABC News the business relationship together again and then all you have is war no diplomacy this is not the way to run the State Department or the US government yeah well if you lose experience you also don't have anyone who has the depth of knowledge to defy you trump ao now and this is disturbing and just very quickly before we let you go Mr Samland who you just mentioned is on a list of people that are to be deposed next week between Rudy Giuliani and the men charged Thursday in campaign finance scheme is a subject of an ongoing criminal investigation being conducted by federal authorities in New York according to two sources familiar with the matter with everybody here I don't know them I don't know about them I don't know what they do but I don't know maybe they were clients avert you'd have to ask you solicitation now we know sitting presidents can't be charged with a crime at least under DOJ policy right but it could be grounds for impeachment it could be a basis for charging others and it could be I don't know joining me now Barbara mcquade former US attorney and Msnbc Contributor Maya Wiley professor at the new school and legal the scheme that they're in trouble for was for trump this sounds a lot like the payoff of the porn actress admitted it was Ram after the it's there's not a crime of guilt by association because my lawyer does commit some crimes independent of me I'm not guilty of his crimes but if there was an agreement that you're going to do this along with other people who were involved Bill Taylor who's a special envoy and we've listed them all their coal George Ken Alrich Brecksville these these are all what Julia if what these two men did is criminal and Giuliani is connected to them and Giuliani is trump's lawyers donald trump in implicated in the conspiracy so quite possibly is the proof take us right but in this case remember even Donald Trump's denial of I don't know them talk to my lawyer Giuliani who I'm not even and just do what you know what the law requires you to do that's number one and the second thing is would they do that knowing that this is an administration where the attorney can Donald Trump claim even if they admit as the lawyer for these two men Mr Ferman and Mister Peres had the same lawyer John Dowd who has already admitted to and when the hush money payments came out and he was being asked for it and it turned out he was lying right he because we then find out when Michael Cohen testified claimed he doesn't know these people I have never seen he's in Texas with them since I was known them at some point or met them etc if in fact religious Guiliani who we now learn because we're all in on it together I want this done and president trump participated in agreement that he is a Co conspirator or if he asked Rudy Giuliani to do it for him where it's the crime of Donald Trump is making a lot of references references like about the US ambassador right like about things that we know Giuliani was explicit is before Congress that Michael Colin was collecting checks in the White House right so he obviously knew those payments were being made because he was signing in his son Guiliani clients were subpoenaed in a letter to house Democrats John Dowd wrote in Comic Sans Ms Partisan firm assisted Mr Giuliani connection with reputation of Donald Trump insurance my lawyer anymore right that was interesting that either you fire them or you didn't write only you know the answer to that question working on and that's showing up in his call with presence Alinsky that's a bad look one last thing why or taps that's it and in the case of the stormy Daniels situation do pay off of this porn actress because you don't want to obviously do it yourself so he does it he takes out a big mortgage is the payment he goes to jail dot dot dot unindicted co-conspirator this sounds like kind of the same thing it does and the question will be wearing sociable offense after president trump leaves office and I mentioned the stormy Daniels situation because this sounds a lot like that right that you have your guy your lawyer assigning one of the checks so in this case the question is is that what we're going to establish and remember that on the call with presidents Alinsky yeah but but I think his it's almost an art joyce and I were on our last night and he played the side-by-side clips it's almost identical to what he said about Michael Cohen the conversations have you had with lev partisan eager I don't know those gentlemen have a picture with them because I have a picture with everybody I ever the drop wiretaps meaning whatever conversations were happening between Giuliani and and from this recording somewhere there maybe some question about what's being referenced in who's being one person who is referenced directly on the call with presidents Alinsky of Ukraine I remember just a reset of getting those who are not like us we all we do is living this up is that Donald trump calls the president of Ukraine News. newly-elected has no relationships needs money needs to Russian police say residual as positive about as much anathema show what they see even he and then my mortar Weirdo laws stability but in spears channing Tanaz Kabbara Macho Giuliani. He said I need you to talk to work with Giuliani because he means this dirt on the former Vice President Joe Biden's son so he references Giuliani and also the current Attorney General William it's money to defend his country against Europe Donald Trump says and this is a transcript vape put out because they thought it would help them I'm going to do me a favor. Though and then he references protecting the integrity of our elections and protecting our elections from unlawful foreign influence or core functions of our campaign should the integrity of our political process and I want to add that this investigation is continuing Rudolph Giuliani himself of ways of looking at attorney client privilege the first question is is Giuliani even trump's attorney right just because you're an attorney doesn't mean that you're provide being legal representation so for instance he might not be acting as an attorney if he's out creating foreign policy or if he's working on campaign strategy that's were arrested how much trouble is Rudolph Giuliani. Well I don't know about the trip to Vienna he wasn't under any charges at the time so I don't know if that alone puts him in ought to a situation before Congress or in court where some prosecutor or some senator wanted to get testimony about what was said and there's the Haas ability that these conversations wouldn't be under the attorney client privilege because of this exception called the crime fraud exception right you can't get legal advice to cover up a crime and here's the in trouble but he's clearly somebody reporting is that he is under investigation it is really unfathomable that a prior us attorney is being investigated maybe the first barrier that trump would have to establish to even have the possibility of claiming that these communications were covered by the attorney client privilege what that dance laws and as this office has made clear we will not hesitate to investigate and prosecute those who engage in criminal conduct that draws into work but before that he was sdn y like he was actually a US attorney he put a mobsters in prison using a lot of confidential sources which he now says illegitimate but here and also as long as they're confidential so if they had these conversations around other people who weren't part of that legal relationship secretary of Lord I don't think he's fired him not that we've heard can he didn't say attorney client privilege I can't discuss any of this so this I think is a really interesting question joy and there are a couple somebody from Sdn y Jeffrey Berman taking warning shot at not just donald trump but also at Rudolph Guiliani ticketless if it's not correct exactly okay I wanNA play now here's the other fun part because Rudolph Giuliani who is most known as being the America's mayor everybody gave him all this extra credit for kicker president trump runs the government he has all the resources of the State Department his disposal why does he need Rudy Giuliani to run a shadow diplomacy the job of mayor that this will still after nine eleven and he became this big superstar after that the questions then what you do with that how do you monetize that Rudolph Giuliani goes off and he does all of this foreign the village does is it means that the client has the ability to keep the attorney or anyone else from making public those communications as long as they cover legal matters date might do it or if you go on national television and talk about your communications or released transcripts so they're both of those aspects of it and then let's say we under investigation and that they won't hesitate to bring to justice anyone who's committed crimes I think there's a lot you can't say when you're US attorney you can't talk about pending investigation a statement if we have Robert Mueller who even in the context of substantial evidence that's the language Robert Muller you substantial evidence that Donald Trump engaged and obstruction of justice and yet didn't feel that he could sitting in the Department of Justice Look at Oh yeah in that press conference is we're still investigating that they've been charged with a couple of crimes I'm not sure there aren't more that are chargeable for But but Guiliani has if he has committed crimes I think what attorney he was Attorney Berman has said there where he he emphasized that the case is his office I think you know Joyce and I were. US attorneys was in US Attorney's office the idea that any of us would be investigated by our former offices would be about the worst thing that could happen to us yeah so it's impossible to not believe that Rudy Giuliani is a person of interest whether or not that results in an indictment so different story but I'm just for all the reasons we've already said and it is striking I think the question about Donald Trump is different while that was a very strong Asian against the Kurds in Syria and to pull back troops from the area has sparked widespread backlash even Republicans who never dared to criticize trump yeah yeah based on what we're hearing learning which means part of the process is you try to get people to flip then go after other people but all that can become evidence for Congress says audit southern border with Syria as a threat US troops or perhaps the only thing preventing Turkey from invading the Kurdish strongholds in northern Kurds have been vital to ousting isis from its strongholds and holding thousands of US fighters and their families in makeshift prisons but Turkey has viewed the rise of Kurdish. I'm for Donald Trump one day I know people in this country were deeply disappointed by the results of the Molar report which is Maya says found that the president had committed crimes he won't the Kurds now we can't turn it over to Turkey to thank that will work is really unusual and dangerous you kidding me again we're benny almost allies area but now the Turkish military has advanced inside Syria striking Kurdish military sites and border towns and forcing thousands of civilians to flee and join me now is said publicly that by pulling out special forces the United States is abandoning its most crucial partner in the ground fight against Isis in Syria the curbs the uh-huh but that to me is a very strong signal that there are others under investigation including Rudolph Guiliani and he worked for doing it went to work for this company in Manhattan has got some ongoing matters and the New York Attorney General is involved to justice comes yeah absolutely can't escape forever and I think Donald Trump has escaped for seventy to just abandon them like that so the Turks income and slaughter them is not just immoral I mean it taints reputation all over the world we can't abandon and his chief global correspondent bill neely was live from Erbil in Iraq and they'll what is the situation for the Kurds at this moment at this time Donald Trump from a prosecutorial standpoint it's very hard to imagine at the Southern District of New York is going to do that with regard to Donald Trump I say that because who did over fighters all we did his arm them and they did all the work and now we say good luck good luck surviving Donald Trump's decision to endorse a mill a Turkish military threatening that we can shut down Turkey's economy the Arab League condemning what they call the invasion of an Arab land and so on big calls also four of this invasion of the Turkish forces have pushed into one of the border tons and they're trying to do what army's always to outcry on dot increased today the US warning the Turks that their relations with Turkey are real risk the defense secretary scheme that took place in any part in New York does he then potentially have a New York prosecutors broke problem and could Giuliani as well I've always believed that justice would sore maybe years of guerrilla style attacks from the Kurds so day four today is just ending heavy fighting but you know really allies have been the other issue here is that the Kurds are also the ones that are holding off Isis and they're holding isis captives donald trump has indicated joy joy me and a bit of a storm but the real storm of course on the battlefield and diplomatically we've got street to street fighting now on he president forever he could be prosecuted after he leaves office by prosecutors in the southern district of New York Cyrus Vance the gist who's not no kin to me freed unleashed but it seems like what they're doing is going to do just that yeah on the on the fact that the Kurds sacrificed eleven thousand what's critical is the fact that you have the US Attorney's office clearly looking to flip some people really part of the signal is planning on getting on a plane and Flying Vienna the same place that Mr Firm and Mr Parnell were going on one way tickets he was about to get on a flight twenty four hours later after completely the Kurds are focused on the attack by the Turks they don't want to be simply the guards of Isis prisons already been be sent to Europe which is a strange weird threat what has the Turkish government said because it's it's odd to me that any country would want those isis fighters to be have made absolutely clear that for them that silver and indeed there are no nighttime raids by US special forces on Kurds anymore that has stopped a years and thought thinks he can do anything New York where you live buddy that's where trump tower is a whole lot of stuff happening in New York so it's GonNa be dot dot dot keep watch this space as Mitchell Madison he has the second biggest military in NATO and they're up against the Kurdish forces who are only lightly armed and I think in the end there is only one very quickly before we go can't flip on anybody trump and he won't be president forever is Donald Trump potentially in trouble if this becomes a criminal speed is their best ally they do not want the Kurds to dig in they want to get to this twenty mile limit as fast as possible because there's an international at stake here of course joy wow bill neely thank you so much really appreciate that get inside thank you very much all right and welcome back opponents of trump's decision on Syria we can't abandon the Kurds now we can't turn it over to Turkey to thank that will work day that blackmail threats will never deter US victory will be ours enjoy I mean I think in the long run you know Turkey Senator Graham thought was Turkey's minister defense but was actually a pair of Russian pranksters hit quite a different take your white. PG Kurdish problem mark asper telling his Turkish counterpart at basically to de Escalate Before this gets completely out of Control Treasury Secretary Steve Mnuchin everything I worried about has come true and now we gotta make sure that Turkey's protected from this thread in Syria I I'm sympathetic. Trump's name will always not be linked with the word betrayal I on the fight against Isis is a real strategic issue in this area and the a couple of attempts at escapes the Kurds safe three attempted jailbreaks five Isis prisoners did escape from one jail disputes internationally here on this well beyond just the fact that the Kurds are ally and that we have been in support of them for so long you know all of our nation mentioned first of all the possibility of the revival resurgence of Isis for Europe and for the US that's the number one strategic threat and that is what's is a real problem I told president trump that Obama made a huge mistake and relying on the why PG Kurds wrong fighters in the fight against Isis what annoys outrageous everyone from Senator Lindsey Graham right through of course to the to the Kurds themselves one officer saying meanwhile sorry back in Washington Senator Lindsey Graham yes that Lindsey Graham trump's erstwhile and ever obedient golf partner and bestest friend has surprisingly been one of the loudest leader back in August so I get that you have a Kurdish problem when he's now the one railing the most about the abandonment of the Kurds well it's and winner on the battlefield but I think the problem for the Turks is what happens once they take this safe zone because it's quite possible they will face weeks or months fraud guarantee which I can't believe that the name just shy it's you can't if you wrote a novel with that then it would take this none of this none of this will sell in Hollywood it's insane no one will believe that under French President Micro Talk to president trump on the phone that's the first thing he said at least that's what the Palestinian statement Lee surprising thing in the news this week was Lindsey Graham may not be saying publicly what he thinks privately but it is a bit weird to have him saying to the Turkish certainly glad you came to me is the one with the least foreign policy experience because that's pretty much what got us into this problem in the first place has none yeah but within the structure of the Middle East Geopolitical Framework Okay Isis was held and was obliterated by the Kurdish an author of how to catch a Russian spy an MSNBC national security analyst. Evan Farkas thank you all for being here I have to come t I on this Charlie because you know probably mccurdy's run prison and the extremist group claimed responsibility for bomb that exploded in the regional capital Lindsey Graham was one of the loudest voices claiming that it was President Obama Sir I mean we'll we'll he signed onto a senatorial resolution condemning the decision if one came up I'm sure he would so let's talk about what's happening here because you have now who allowed Isis to resurge by drawing down in Iraq the war we went to because pretend the previous administration pretended that Iraq had something to do with nine eleven often foremost forget anything that you hear from the administration this administration lies about everything that they're saying right now everything that they're saying a lot feeding isis they surrounded the last stronghold and took all of them prisoner or holding all of their families in these compounds but there's one thing that doc is really and dangerous sounds stuff but this is Lindsay Graham so it may not be all that surprising that in a call back in August with someone forces in which they will be able to attack and take weapons from and also it will give them the ability to appear that they are invincible each and said and what the Secretary of Defense said none of that stuff matters because this is a deal made between two autocrats on a phone call in the middle of the night the only opinions abandoning the Kurds American tradition that goes back at least twenty five years that I can think of I think when bill neely was talking about what Steve What you're going to see is an insurgency that's going to make Isis appear like amateurs because they have special forces training they have equipment and arbuckle kwait thank you very much my thing much joyce thank you very much Kim Deci better than cy more Andrew after the break PG problem join Charlie Pierce of Esquire Malcolm nance author of the plot to destroy democracy the Jamali Newsweek columnist sources who came south with our special forces they kicked in the doors they were the one who lost eleven thousand dead men and women fighting have the two million people who are facing an existential threat to their way of life but isis will just dissipate that Isis cannot be defeated that's why they did this suicide bombing in Raka the capital and what will happen here is when the Russians and the Assad government sweep Carla Saad where do you use chemical weapons on his own people they're selling weapons systems to Saudi Arabia which by the way someone explained to me why we're sending three can happen we never caught isis leader Abu back around Baghdadi he is still out there and these people have a place in which to rally around but Russia now sells weapons systems to Iran weapons systems to Turkey what they prop the entire gassing terroristic government of of apparently by mistake what is going on there can you please explain yeah so we can report now with with James Thousand US soldiers to Saudi Arabia this week and we're removing our special forces out of Kurdistan to allow them to be killed yeah Russia is now calling now you have a Republican President Donald Trump essentially allowing isis to literally come back this will literally come back I from Europe to stop this but President Erdogan absolutely defiant saying we will not stop for anyone and his spokesman saying in the south and take the oil fields that we attack that we actually killed two hundred fifty Russians over a year ago okay and the Turks sweep down from the north coming to you on this Malcolm. The Turkish invasion of Kurdish held territory in northern Syria raised new fears of a resurgence of the Islamic state on Friday as five militants escaped from now is is actually cut seven sorry I'm changing my plan here but Isis bears its head adding chaos as Turkey battles. Kurds is a New York Times piece official is that the Turks Kurds did not know about tunneled trump's decision to allow the Turks to to move over there invasion in fact they found airpower letting them know if they didn't stop they were gonNA bomb on their forehead the second thing that we can report and in conversations I've had with a senior Turkish intelligence often too small terrorist cells the foreigners especially these French and Belgians who were there in southern Syria will start working their way home and like Donald Trump eighteen minutes and only stopped when US air assets lays the Turkish battery what that means joy is that the Turks would have kept the artillery barrage if not for us. According Tom O'Connor we have a couple of interesting scoops here the first is that this was not a few rounds fired a warning shot shot towards operation post wants he wants them to commit acts of terrorism because it for the political message he's been putting on Russia's seems is is said to the pieces I've been reading I am the politics are about being beholden to trump until they're not right and well I think he's still beholden to trump I don't think he's going to do anything yeah he's GonNa he's GonNa Talk Yeah but he's tickle planning and we have officials that are scrambling to try to make things work and it's just we've had a wall where they can't catch up fast enough and that's why the positions down to a grid which is within a meter of where US forces are we'll yesterday would tell us that either the Turks new the US forces were they most likely didn't impulsive move move by trump one that has not been coordinated with US forces I mean we heard the SECDEF and the chief of Joint Staff say that the Turkey so that goes against this this just shows that again this is a president who makes these incredibly impulsive moves has no real strategic understanding of what he's doing and no said that Russia's also a winner here in Donald Trump giving to this autocratic Turkey what does Russia get out of all this Russia gets the Middle East I don't know if you've noticed survey ship post in any way all precautions were taken prior to opening fire to prevent any harm to the US space as a precaution we ceasefire upon receiving information from the US we firmly reject yeah no joy none of this is normal I mean what everybody needs to understand all the people watching at home is that this is a catastrophic moral military matter right now the only people who can do anything about this are Erdal on Donald Trump and neither one of them is GonNa do anything the reason I do I because this is politics for Lindsey Graham I mean it's astonishing and he did it on Vladimir Putin's birthday so there's that element as well wow prosecute thousand meters southwest of US observation post in Self-defense. Reciprocal fire was opened on the terrorist positions of the attack Turkey did not open fire at the US diplomatic blunder that our president has committed because he cleared the way he said come on in Turkey I'M GONNA move my forces and you can do what you want with these curves onto another map just of all of this I do love just show the visuals because people the proximity of all they're all on top of each other and Turkey is right there the former leader of the now fire that's reaching US forces in any way whatever the explanation for it was that's number one and can you address whether or not in any way it is normal you have this breakdown here we have an American soldiers that were almost killed frankly yeah okay that's that's terrifying Evelyn Farkas I before I read you a statement from Turkey three as it's called where the US forces are in fact it was so close the Operation Post that U S forces they're asked to return fire the bombardment went on about ten have to defend themselves their families their villages. They won't be able to guard these facilities that much longer if the Turks continue second you have the civil war raging in Syria we had some leverage we still have some leverage because we still have troops there we should be using that leverage to get to the negotiating table and I have to say I'm also really disappointed onto onto ladimir Putin's birthday but but the real issue here is that this our government has no strategy vis-a-vis the Middle East and this is the problem number one you have the I can also square the circle a little bit on Senator Graham which is to say and I don't defend anything on Ukraine and Russia lately but he had a point we we did not think through the claim that US our coalition fired upon Evelyn somebody who worked for the Defense Department first of all this is a NATO problem right if there's outlined the rest of us over twitter they have not had coversation since would it page joy to me is a decision that is just chaotic that was done this was kind of a patchwork deal we had with the Kurds the only way to actually come out of this nicely would have been at the negotiating table and this is exactly where Liz Cheney with the statement of umbrage out there we withdraw all of the hawks are now coming out these are the people who claimed that they had influence over trump because they literally took the his best friend and that he would at least he didn't even call him he simply tweeted out this new policy after calling the Turkish autocrat so you've got him on the alleged targeting of a US observation post just a little bit earlier today Turkish border outpost south of Seru came under doce and mortar fire from the hills located the terrorism issue so this is only making it more dangerous now for the United States and our allies in Europe right because these isis fighters the Kurds are not going to be able to hang on e bowed down to him all this time they have no influence this guy didn't become president fifteen minutes ago they couldn't figure this out by now they do have influence over or they should have influence over our their own political futures they should this group should get together and Donald trump can do to Mitt Romney accept ridicule him on twitter Yeah Mitt Romney could be the one and this has been the case ever since he gave that speech during the two thousand agents Mitt Romney has absolutely nothing to lose right he's Richard Donald trump he's going to be in that Senate seat until three weeks after he's dead there's nothing ron here's the thing the theory Lindsey Graham that he traded his dignity for access that essentially he thought he had influence over Donald Trump and he could prevent him from making rash decisions because in the Europeans th yes they went to the United Nations and it was astonishing that we were on the side of Russia and Iran with our European allies normal right but don't and they can't and no one can understand why let me read you a little about this betrayal which we heard bill neely say that according to now the Kurds Donald Trump's name will always be associated with the trail that's gotta be our allies in a foreign theater war theater to find out what the commander-in-chief of the United States is going to do to them by twitter this country debate for serious people unfortunately we don't have many of those in the executive branch these days these people can be I mean if they want the veins of any pro pro trump person now that's his reputation among other things this from the Guardian waiting on a roadside depot Hussein Rambo a stooped or elderly all the shots in the Middle East and I wouldn't be surprised if Donald Trump called Vladimir Putin and get advice on this before he made his deal with it's pretty crazy if we can relationships they're not gonNA hold it against them but they will hold it against Americans in the future let's say that the operation goes forward and thousands of Kurds a concert in action concert political action against this look what our role is in the Middle East going forward as a legitimate topic for political debate waiting to be killed right and they start losing hundreds of fighters to this thing then the United States Americans will start being seen by the sixteen campaign but he comes right up to the edge and then he can't do it and here's the thing here we go back to our anniversary time again happy anniversary again almost what is it going to be talking about this is that is bin Salman Susan Collins Again Ben Sasse aren't Marsha Blackburn John Cornyn Pat Toomey were blood none of these people have any influence over trump no they don't and and date and personal betrayal is one of those things where you really need to watch your back now all of these operators with the special forces who were out there who had very personal his is wet with tears had the look of a broken man betrayal leaves the bitterest taste he said his voice at a whisper as he discussed Donald Trump's decision to abandon series list American citizens around the World American assets you may have unleashed a terrorist group that is very very well trained but the only reason that they're doing that Kurds this is donald trump's legacy but it's also every single republicans legacy whether they're complaining about it now we're not no bad news for you it's every single American our president went wrong and to come back to make you the Graham explainer today got in that position Charlie because Graham whisper you the Graham was because they can be the wise men but they're not doing at all they're doing is putting out is throwing their brows until their eyebrows or in the back of their head and putting out strongly worded as the people who need to be targeted so you know fortunately we've withdrawn our troops or bottom back to the corrales with at but you know in the future American journal or even worse they just allow Isis to do their thing while they're protecting their wives and kids this is not well thought through because the man who came up very good point I look I've operated with. The Kurds carried out intelligence operations in Iraq with the Iraqi Kurds these people have very deep memories we just work with them to get the dirt when this comes before Congress in an impeachment hearing or if this goes to court could Giuliani because he's with them deserve the offices that they're in can you put up the list please element to this is all the Republicans condemning trump policies change Mitch McConnell Lindsey Graham Mitt Romney Marco Rubio Ted Cruz Susan I'm an empire Sergei like Turkey was an empire that controlled a lot of that territory I wanna go to Novi because you wrote a piece this week for Newsweek called Turkey attacks you a special forces in Syria sort on this because you occasionally you know interact with members of Congress the question is not what they're gonNA say what they're gonNa do because as you just heard Malcolm lay out the consequences really could fly see is a moron and he should never have been allowed near the levers of power and now he's portraying our closest allies in the Middle East and you don't have to give you episodes of why is this happening every Tuesday listen for free wherever you get your podcasts wallace next the operation arguing that Kurds are key protectors of the region's Christian minority even uber trump ally Franklin Graham raised his voice or a former deputy assistant secretary of Defense Donald trump loss his original secretary of Defense General Mattis over the withdrawal from Syria do you expect anyone in the regions including televangelist Pat Robertson have long been devout members of the Maga coalition remaining absolutely faithful to trump even through his Russia gate scandal more than dozen sexual harassment and assault allegations and his policy of separating largely Christian refugee mothers and fathers from their children at the border but surprisingly this week some okay he made a tweet that read quote pray for the Christians who the Kurds have been protecting they could be annihilated Jimmy now is reverend Jim Wallis founder word speak out against trump's decision to pull back forces from northern Syria allowing Turkey to attack Kurdish forces there right wing Christian leaders have spoken out against the to solemnity but President of the United States is in danger of losing the mandate of Heaven Wow white evangelical whatsoever is now allowing the Christians and the courage to be massacred by the Turks and I believe and I wanna say this with great soldiers and author of Christ in crisis I have your book carry it around with me because I'm really looking forward to reading it Sir and you wrote a piece in the themselves are the teachings of Christ going to be followed or not do you see in this very small uprising among some right wing evangelical Christian leaders set in their statement that Turkey knows where we are so this is a betrayal though I he's got morale problem I mean we already heard earlier in your in your hour about secretary pompey's and the president who allowed Kashogi to be cut in pieces without any repercussion lately off guard by this announcement and they're feeling betrayed I mean if you read the Dod's statement yesterday it was pretty harsh and you know I think that that shows kind of where American talk and coming up right wing evangelical leaders do something even more rare the Lindsey Graham criticizing Donald Trump we'll tell you what that is when I'm joined by author Christian activists an opening where people might decide that they cannot simply follow trump off the ledge it's nice to see you joy thanks great question is if you've lost the trust of the people on the battlefield where are we going and that is exactly what is happening today last word to you on this actually do about it yeah I have to agree with Charlie I think that this is we've seen it time and time again with the Republicans look just WanNa focus on what Malcolm just said about the trail one of the things that were I think they should have been an uprising long before this the question of why these white evangelicals are supporting trump over and over in harassment isn't just sexist it's antichrist's so this is a following Jesus question more than just a foreign policy or hearing in fact from Syria is not just the Kurds who feel betrayed but rather the US forces who have really forge a relationship with these Kurds who were caught word but I have to say we have to say that white nationalism is not just racist it's anti Christ the human apologies for making you the author of your quote a minute and you're quoted as saying there is a conflict between the politics of Jesus and the politics of trump at some point Christians have to I'll go sun-times this Thursday in which you said trump versus Jesus Christians cannot follow both though I'm sorry you were quoted in this book are you were quoted in that's why I did this book on the Jesus questions so you know racial bigotry is a deal breaker for the ising immigrants isn't just a lack of compassion it's really antichrist's I know it's a strong word but demeaning women sexual violence ask and so how do we get to those Jesus questions I think that's going to be the big issue when you knew conversation about Jesus Shen from me or even from you but they've got to answer some Jesus questions so question Jesus asked or was was prompted ed or was he says and does is the big question we should linger on that for a moment it's being asked around the world and they don't have to answer that question our political questions and to your very point if you look at the polling about the ways that White Evangelical Christians feel about Donald Trump his approval rating even today and this is October three through eight poll is at sixty seven percent among White Evangelical Christians just twenty seven percent disapproving six percent or somehow department where he used to work to resign over this now I don't and I know the current Secretary Mark Asper you know he was very firm as Malcolm just said and they also people I wish I would have heard these people saying that before it's a deal breaker for the Gospel so this may be an irreverent or a contract why wasn't that an uprising it makes me feel like the operative word in white evangelical is sadly not ever total trump ally coming out this week and saying I do not have a high level of confidence in fact I have no confidence that Turkey will preserve religious freedom to protect those religious minorities why only on the protection of religious minorities in the the risk that Turkey poses to them why are they suddenly turning well you know local but white and so I have to push my brothers and sisters who are white evangelicals to embrace the teachings of Jesus beyond the move them nothing about separating Christian families at the border nothing about caging children many of whom are Christian coming from Central America none of that move

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24:42 min | 9 months ago

Ukraine International Flight 752

"The president trump's impeachment trial is around the corner so's his State of the Union. The Iowa caucuses and then this election in season finally begins in earnest by mid February that one week mic war we had with Iran might be all but a distant memory for most host but not so much for the families of Ukraine International Airlines flight. Seven five two for them. The fallout from the beef with Iran is just starting to ramp up on the show today. We're going to tell the story of what exactly happened as far as we know to this plane and what's to come for all the countries involved Canada Ukraine Iran. Maybe even the United States. Justin Ling is a freelance journalist based in Toronto. He's been covering the story for foreign policy so on January eighth just a little over a week ago amid a lot of tensions in the Middle East just as has Iran was firing a barrage of missiles toward the American military bases in Iraq. You Creating Airlines international flight. Seven fifty two took off from Tehran destined didn't for Kiev and then a lot of the passengers were destined to go on to Toronto. We're learning that a Boeing seven. Three seven passenger plane has crashed in Iran. On with one hundred and seventy six passengers and crew on board those on board included academics returning from holidays newlyweds coming back from their wedding and many many students students. They came from Iran Canada Ukraine Sweden Afghanistan Germany and England. One hundred thirty eight of them were supposed to be on a connecting flight to Toronto. It landed this afternoon without those people. All of them died in the crash. Now there's a whole bunch of confusion as was happening There were reports of a plane. Crash Ashby this was happening. The exact same time there were fears that American Fighter jets were taking off from the UAE elsewhere may be destined for Iran. There was a men's men's confusion about the aware the missiles were going. What fighter jets may have been scrambled? So no one really knew what was happening. It wasn't until we started getting images of this wreckage is that as the hours went on. It became clear that this commercial flight had gone down. So how does Iran initially react to this plane going down. What did they say so? When it becomes clear that in fact a commercial jet had gone down in Iran before anyone really knew fully what had happened Iranian media reports say the aircraft came down to technical problems? One official said it had been on fire. There wasn't a lot a lot of credibility behind that especially shortly after images started coming out that we're initially unverified. Seem about who was showing what appeared to be the plane on fire her mid-flight before it crashed in a field. That generally doesn't seem to happen a lot with engine failure. You don't see a huge explosion. I have my suspicions. It was. It's very I don't want to say that because other people have those suspicions also It's a tragic thing when I see that it's a tragic thing Somebody could've made a mistake on the other side could've could've made a mistake. It was flying. It was already from the get go. There was a lot of speculation that this has been a military incident a not a mechanical failure. Most Western leaders are unanimous in their assessment that missiles launched in Iran brought down on the doomed plane but today Tehran demanding proof so while Iran is denying that this is their work wetter Ukraine canvassing about it publicly publicly. Ukraine was quiet Ukraine managed to get investigators to the crash site relatively quickly Seemingly quicker than any other foreign state that's because under international national civil aviation laws. The destination country has special rights when it comes to the investigation. They have a higher standing when it comes to sending investigators to the crash rush site and Iran dispatched a number of highly trained investigators to look at the crash site and it seems thanks reporting now that the investigators learned pretty quickly clear that this was a shootdown event. They kept that quiet. Initially Candido was a little more blunt. Time went on. We have intelligence from multiple multiple sources including our allies and our own intelligence. The evidence indicates that the plane was shot down by an Iranian surface surface to air missile. This may well have been unintentional. He opened the door and said listen. This may be an accident. We don't know but he said you know the intelligence. It's pretty clear cut so very quickly. I think. Put Iran on the defensive as they're still trying to claim that this was a mechanical failure so how Iran react to Canada's aggressive aggressive reaction. You had the head of the Iranian civil aviation organisation saying that they had already investigated that they completely ruled out the possibility that missiles were to blame for downing the jet families of those killed in the downed plane in Iran are facing competing narratives. Tonight about what led to the deaths of their loved ones. Iran does not believe what that Prime Minister Justin Trudeau said yesterday about an Iranian missile shooting down the Ukraine Airlines flight categorically denies it. But of course there's video evidence of if these missiles heading towards the plane. It's very very clear what had happened. Based on cell phone imagery that was uploaded and that was collected in some cases by the New York Times and others I I think it became pretty clear to Iran that they didn't have a leg to stand on. Does Iran come out and make an official statement saying hey that was actually us us and sorry relied on. Iranian state. Media certainly recognized that it wasn't fact the Iranian regime. That doesn't really happen happen unless the regime itself acknowledgement Iran now faces pressure not just from America of course with whom it had a rising tensions over recent weeks weeks but now it has a problem with Canada with Ukraine with the European Union and suddenly after trying to garner some international goodwill it is now very much regarded as is the bad guy. Not only did it shoot down a plane. It tried to lie about it and that is very difficult. I think for the Iranian regime to spin to the European countries. He's with whom it's trying to preserve a nuclear deal on top of that. You have rising discord inside Iran itself. There's anger at the government on the streets in Tehran. Pockets of protest. After Ron's military admitted is accidentally shot down a civilian plane. They shout for their leaders to resign. There were widespread protests in Iran or the end of last year largely over the cost of living thing as the new year dawned a lot of those protests petered out partially because of fear I think internally that they were heading to the precipice of war with America especially after the targeted killing of General Somali. I think the Iranian regime's managed to rally some of the population around. You know it's national. 'cause is that went out the window when it became clear that Iran was responsible for shooting down a jet that had dozens of its own citizens on board. So what is Iran doing now to own this. In recent days you've seen the state start rounding up. Some people with detail who they claim are responsible for the shootdown Iran now confirming that arrest happy made of those involved in the accidental shooting. Down of that play no details. How how many or exactly who has been arrested food and this morning? Iran's President Ronnie admitting the from the get-go he taught the crash wasn't normal. That does seem to be a bit of scapegoating. You know sort of trying to blame blame a rogue faction or you know some incompetent military brass inside but I don't know that many in the public are really going to buy that. I mean fundamentally mentally military structures being what they are. You can't really blame the lowest level. For a mistake of this magnitude ultimately someone higher up needs to be held responsible if non the military the state itself was there any attempt to shift the blame back on the United States. Yeah absolutely I mean. That was kind of quick retort from Tehran. After they recognized they of themselves were responsible for down this airliner. They sort of put it back onto Washington and said you know if not for the hostilities spurred by America this never would have happened and surely Canada isn't too happy with the United States. Either I think if there were no tensions if there was no escalation recently in the region. those Canadians would be right now with their families This is something that happens when when you have conflict and war innocence bear the brunt of Ed Canadian citizens were represented more than any others. There's in the international community on that flight and I think it puts it on Canada to step in and and ensure that there is a credible investigation for one but also credible so You know legal process thus far it's been a mixed bag. Iran initially said that the black boxes were damaged and couldn't be read. Now they're saying either damaged but they're still data on them and just recently we've seen them seemingly acquiesced to a request to send the boxes to France for analysis so it remains to be seen in how to what end they're going to allow military commanders to be interviewed by investigators. That will be a huge piece of this puzzle. It's not not clear whether or not they're going to participate in potentially process at the International Court of Justice. All those things down the line are big questions. That will be very interesting to see how ron response to and more with Justin in a minute on today explained And I'm songwriter. Charlie harding and I'm musicologists needs Sloan where the host of switched on pop a podcast about the making and meaning of popular music. Every week. Charlie I break down the most interesting hits trends ends in artists to understand what they're doing what they're saying and why the songs are so infectious. We've recently broken down. Billy eyelashes music with her brother and collaborator operator. phineas dissecting chance the rapper with super producer felder and covered everything from Dolly. Parton to Scott if you love music you're going to discover something. The era opening in switched on pop. So join US search for switched on pop in your favorite podcast APP and listen to episode about your favorite artists and subscribe for free on Apple podcasts. spotify or ever you're listening to get new music explainers every week and after listening you might want to check out. Our new book switched on Pop. How Popular Music Works and why it matters at your favorite bookseller? Thanks know I'm just in his something like this ever happened before Country accidentally shooting down a plane. Full live civilians yeah. Unfortunately it's happened several times in nineteen eighty eight in the Iran Iraq war Thir- were immense tensions nations in the region. There was a huge threat to international shipping industry of WHO's incredibly credibly vital shipping lane so the US Navy dispatched several ships to patrol the waters and sort of make sure that both estates were respecting international shipping at one point in early July nineteen eighty ace and Iranian Airlines flight took off from from a southern port port city and the US naval ship nearby mistook it for an F.. Fourteen fighter jet and fired two missiles and down the flight killing killing everybody on board mostly around citizens and evaluating information available from the Persian Gulf. We believe that the cruiser USS been sands while actively engaged with threatening running surface units protecting itself from what was concluded to be hostile aircraft shot down and Iranian NEOM airliner over the Straits of her Moose. Government deeply regrets the sensible in that moment. A lot of those fears about what happens when a military military sort of overreacts came alive all over again the US military express their dismay immediately but they didn't take responsibility information that is available to us that the commanding commanding officer operator or other conducted himself with circumspection and considering information that was available to him followed his thirties and acted with good judgement and other Berry crying period of time the US military very similar way to what the Iranians did just this month. They sort of making excuses for the aircraft was not in the air corridor that would normally be in the air quarters. Orders a limited amount of airspace and he was outside of that whether that is Started saying you'll wealth. The flight was operating under military frequency. The flight started descending quite rapidly in an aggressive maneuver and they started goes trying to set up justification for the shootdown now in the months that followed a lot of the other intelligence and Radio Communications radar imagery showed with that in fact the flight was transmitting on a civilian frequency as well that it was quite obvious. It was a commercial airliner that in fact the flight was ascending not descending and that a lot of the claims that were being made may have been well believed in the moment but we're ultimately wrong. It sounds like there is an established playbook for this and that playbook is whenever you shoot shoot down a plane accidentally. The first thing you do is lie about it not even necessarily lie but you kind of weaponize information you have in front of you to sort of skirt responsibility right so you know. I don't really have any doubt that those on the ship did believe that an F. Fourteen was heading their way with the intentive sinking ship. That being said obviously there was more checks that they need to do to confirm that it was an F. Fourteen and not a civilian aircraft. How does the U the US deal with its accidental downing of a civilian aircraft it starts proceedings at the UN and in Court of Justice Government the Republic of Iran considers this a pe- meditated active aggression and a premeditated cold blooded murderer hairdo and they go to court? Basically saying America needs to be held responsible for this America all the while is expressing sympathy. It sort of acknowledges when you know that this was done in air but never actually apologizes and it never really takes responsibility for its happened. Ultimately that process begins is a full investigation as a real investigation instigation that sort of lays bare a lot of the facts of this case but when it gets to court America basically says we're looking to settle the United States and Iran have settled Iran's claims against the United States which were filed before the International Court of Justice concern and that sort of begins setting the stage for what the case law will be going forward and I think also reinforces to the world that there needs to be rules in these situations. They can't really be ad hoc basis where mayor countries are allowed to sort of accept responsibility or deny responsibility based on how they're feeling that day. So how much does the. US end up paying. So ultimately the settlement nineteen ninety six to about one hundred thirty one million dollars. It's not a huge sum of money. But I think from both sides it was a relatively fair settlement Recognition of the damage. That had done those families. Of course we never really replace those who died but it was a substantial of money and did it create some sort of legal legal precedents even though it was I guess up to these two countries. How much money was issued? Its sort of created a benchmark for what a reasonable settlement looks like American never accepted responsibility. Never apologized and that was something. Iran on always demanded years later when the captain of the ship that was responsible for the downing was kind of celebrated and recognized as a hero and in the US military Iran was was absolutely livid all over again so there there's always been this retention where America has never quite owned up to what happened in its entirety and in Iran has has always been sort of sore about that but it sort of sets rules on what happens when a military down two civilian airliner and sort sort of lays the groundwork for investigations. Look like when that happens. You know who's responsible meal is the kind of sets the legal framework to actually bring someone what did bring a foreign nation to court in an instance like this and now ironically Iran's in the position of being the aggressor who might might need to pay out to countries like Canada Ukraine and its own citizens. Yeah that's right and I it sort of turns the tables. It's why it's so difficult. Take credibly a lot of attempts by Tehran to sort of throw this back in America's face because they were the ones clamoring for this credible process that features a serious investigation A real court process and a real penalties and ownership and recognition of what had happened up something that basically kind of uncomfortable with doing now. Who's going to be in the position more so here to ensure that Iran is held? Held accountable is in Ukraine Canada. We saw conversation begin around. What a legal process should look like when win a military downs a civilian airliner? There's something called the Chicago Convention and the Chicago Convention Governs how commercial airliners are supposed to operate from one country to another. It's supposed to be international standard for how planes take off and land and fly through other countries airspace. So under the Chicago oh convention it's sort of recognizes different parties for different responsibilities so as part of the investigation. The manufacturer of the aircraft has sort of special status in terms of you'll leading the investigation though that is sort of designed more for mechanical failures. The country the flight was destined for has has standing to run the investigation. But it's also not totally defined. I mean Canada has insisted on sending investigators already sent. I'm a couple. It's likely to send me more. There was some reticence by Iran seemingly give them visas They've now been award of those visas and the likely in Aron right now and and more likely to show up but I think Canada has to sort of force itself into this. I mean I don't think Ukraine is necessarily incredibly invested vested in in the region. You know it has its own sort of concern story but right now the majority of the victims from from abroad where Canadian so I think it really puts the onus on Canada to step in here. What's more Canada has long pressed to the Iranian regime for for changes around human rights the round democratic processes to sort of try to press it to stop funding terrorist organizations in the region so I think Canada has already exercised? Is the fair bit of pressure on the Iranian state. It has been supportive. Do not a party to the nuclear deal with European Union and the US which I think again puts it into a good spot to actually use what leverage it has to go after Tehran to to do this properly Canada had substantial sanctions in place against Iran? Up until the last couple of years it removed those sanctions and I can imagine that putting them back on. We'll be on the table now. So I think candidate is really the best-placed here. Of course America may see itself being party to the eventual legal process but obviously given the hostility between those two countries and Iran's assistance that America's America's somewhat to blame for the downing. I it puts them in to awkward as a spot to really inject themselves into this process in a major way house. The Canadian Indian public reacting. Is it mad at Iran is mad at the United States. I think it's both you know. There is a public perception. That America America does bear some blame because it created the hostilities that led to this incident at the same time. There's also I think we need to be a fair bit of anger at the Iranian state for actually being responsible and if there's a perception that Iran is dragging its feet wind comes the investigation or the court process or that is obvious skating or trying to cover. Cover up this incident. I think there's going to be a real demand that that Iran be held to account. But there's been a favorite of morning. This was devastating especially to the small number of communities is where these folks came from. Most of the victims came either from Edmund Tin Auto or Montreal and you saw the prime minister reach out to a lot out of the victims families and friends and supporters who showed up on Parliament Hill to hold a candlelight vigil the day after the incident this has been really devastating to a a tight. Knit Community David Geniuses. Who came here to to learn? They came here to out to the world and how they are not year war your she was on the plane last night and she lost her with her two friends. I have no one in Canada like my friends are my family's David L. Families it's new today. I lost brother sister. And it's you may feel unbearably lonely that that you are not alone. Your entire country stands with view tonight tomorrow and in all the years to come we will build that future. They all dreamed of together. That's what Canada is But if Canada is successful tool in holding Iran accountable it might end up insuring that the families of Iranians who died on this flight are compensated tip absolutely and that that really is the flip side of all of this is that if candidates can make this International Court of Justice process where it can put real force in effect behind the Chicago Convention. Then that is a real big victory here. This is what this whole process was designed to as going back to the one thousand nine hundred eighty S. This was kind of the dream of a lot of people who who put this together was to create a legal mechanism to ensure that with this happens there is repercussions and that there has to be if not a full apology. At least recognition of responsibility Path to justice for the people who lost their loved ones. On these flights and hopefully you sorta disincentive for states to shoot first and ask questions later. Justin Ling is a freelance reporter. He's been writing lots about flight. Seven five two for foreign policy. I'm Sean Ramos Firm. This it is today explained

Iran Iran Canada United States Ukraine America Tehran International Court of Justice Justin Ling Tehran Ukraine International Airlines Toronto president UAE Iowa official Ron Middle East European Union
Impeachment, Whistleblowers, and Ukraine

Pantsuit Politics

1:02:36 hr | 1 year ago

Impeachment, Whistleblowers, and Ukraine

"Being one of the first classes of women eligible for combat isn't congresswoman. Mikey Cheryl's only standout I she's she's also part of the record breaking class of women elected to the one hundred sixteenth Congress hear her story and how she hopes to forge change by working with colleagues across the aisle on the latest episode of Bipartisan Policy Center actions the bipartisan backstory podcast. I would like to submit on behalf of many of us cool heads in the electorate. This isn't a rush to judgment and it's not wrong to look at this this whistleblower complaint in the context of the last few years compartmentalizing everything does not benefit us sometimes as we need to look at the whole and so. Mitt Romney reads this and says he's troubled. I mean to paraphrase one of our great artists. We knew he was trouble when he walked in and it is okay to have that sense of him. It is okay to look at this and say this is wrong and it is in character for him. This is Sarah this Beth. You're listening to pantsuit politics. The home of grace filled political conversations aw well friends. It's Friday and it's been quite a week and we are going to get right to it picking up from Tuesday's Newsday's episode in which we said Hey this seems like a big deal referring to the whistle blowers complaint about the president's call with the Ukrainian President President that we were saying it does that afternoon speaker of the House of Representatives announced that the house would be opening a formal romell impeachment inquiry and we have had just a constant drumbeat of learning more information. I we get a transcript of the call then we have a hearing with the acting director of National Intelligence. We know that you all have lives and things to do and that some people apple have been watching every second of this along with us on social media and some people feel like they are in an impossible tornado trying to figure out what's happening so we wanna take a big step back today and try to slowly walk through what we know and then get into what we think about what we know so we'll begin with just thinking about Ukraine for a second because you have to really understand the dynamics surrounding Ukraine to follow the whistle blowers complaint in this story. We talked a lot about Ukraine on this podcast when Paul Manafort's legal troubles rules with Robert Muller were in the news because Paul manafort worked in Ukraine with pro Russian forces so Ukraine was was part of the USSR it gained its independence when the USSR fell apart since then there are people in Ukraine who believe Ukraine. It should be very close to Russia should perhaps eventually be part of Russia again. There are more people seemingly in Ukraine who believe that Ukraine should be part of NATO. HBO and work in a more European direction and Russia has actively invaded Ukraine because Vladimir Putin wants this country to to be part of Russia once again and so there is a true war actual combat happening over territory in Ukraine between Ukraine and Russia and NATO countries have been supportive of Ukraine in in defending against Russia. The United States has provided military aid to Ukraine against Russia and most global experts believe that if Russia were to overtake Ukraine again then it would be the beginning of a very dark period in human history because of the possibilities that opens up for Russia. Is there anything that I have misstated are overstated there or that you want to add to. I would just say that Ukraine and the intensity of the situation in Ukraine started in two thousand fourteen and that's why you really need to go all the way back to two thousand fourteen as many of the timelines online do in order to get a full picture of why everything that's happened. This week is of such national security importance so like I said the Ukraine was part of the USSR then it was independent then in two thousand fourteen in early two thousand fourteen Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych was ousted from power. There was a popular uprising he flees to Russia also in two thousand fourteen is when Russia comes in and quote unquote annexes the Crimean Peninsula which was the first basically illegal invasion seizure of land in Europe since World War Two. It's a big deal. NATO certainly thinks it's a big the deal the United States until the trump administration thought it was a big deal and Yanukovych worked closely with Paul Manafort so when he's ousted and he goes flees to Russia and you have people coming in to try to clean up the Ukraine get rid of the corruption and particularly only the Russian influence. That's pull up a chair everybody because that's where our story really begins so as part of this attempt to clean enough the Ukraine there was an energy company named Burris MMA Holdings owned by Russian oligarch. They were part of this corruption pro under for an old Ukrainian prosecutor okay and so they were trying to clean up their act and they hired a bunch of people for their board one of which was Hunter Biden son Vice President President Joe Biden so not only was it private companies that were trying to appear more transparent and less corrupt it was also the government itself self and the international community including Vice President Joe Biden at the time was calling on the firing of the Prosecutor General of the Ukraine at the time Victor Shokhin to be fired because he was seen as holding up most of these sort of anti-corruption movements commits in so Joe Biden along with many other in the international community were calling on him to be fired so biden like other leaders and consistent chant with United States policy told Ukrainian officials that they needed to fire shokhin or they would risk losing more than a billion dollars in loan loan guarantees so when you hear president trump referring to Joe Biden bragging about leaning on the prosecutor in Ukraine Crane. This seems to be what he's referring to by. Later did say yeah. I told them they have to fire him or they'll lose more than a billion dollars in loan guarantees counties and it wasn't just the United States and other countries that were putting this pressure on Ukraine the IMF the International Monetary Fund threatened threatened to halt a bailout program for Ukraine unless it addressed. It's corruption issues so finally in two thousand sixteen the Ukrainian parliament oust this this particular prosecutors shokhin on just coincidentally the same day that Paul Manafort is hired by Donald Trump's presidential campaign so Yuri Loot Cinco becomes the new prosecutor general of Ukraine replacing Shokhin and then Dan manafort becomes the head of Donald Trump's campaign so by mid two thousand sixteen though this old relationship between Panico Vic and Manafort is starting to come to the public's attention Ukrainian feeling the existence of off the book Payments Mints Between Yanukovych Political Party and Paul Manafort and because of all this bed press manafort is forced out of Donald Trump's campaign in August and then of course first and November of two thousand sixteen. Donald trump is elected president and it's really important to keep in mind that Yanukovych is the pro Russian leader later in Ukraine who was forced out of office and actually into exile in Russia by a popular uprising in Ukraine and so manafort has been closely aligned with people who are believed to be closely aligned with President Putin. We talked a lot about that when and Manafort was being indicted because you you kept thinking this is supposed to be all about Russia. Why does Ukraine keep coming on the scene and this is why because is Ukraine matters a lot to Russia and Russia is constantly interfering in Ukrainian business in Ukrainian elections and Ukrainian politics so in early twenty seventeen the probes of burris MMA this company that Hunter Biden was on the board of were closed according to Berea sma mom loot Cinco the prosecutor general who succeeded Victor Shokhin and who was appointed by the predecessor to Wlodimierz Alinsky Ukraine's current president so we had poorest Shaneco before Zielinski and poorest Shinko appointed Lukashenko. Stay with US okay so lead. Sankoh tells Bloomberg that there's still one investigation going on us to Burris Burris may has said this is all done okay then we have a report in twenty eighteen that Ukrainian cranium officials had decided to stop assisting Bob Muller's investigation out of concern that doing so would harm their relationship with trump's administration because remember Russia is actively in Ukraine and Ukraine needs the help of the United States nice to deal with that problem and this is when you have the three Democratic Senator Bob Menendez Richard Durbin and Patrick layhee right to loot Cinco urging him to explain why he made that decision continue working with Bob Muller and that's the letter that Donald Trump was waving around earlier this week so then we get into Ukrainian election Shen and you have the Linski challenging poor Shinco and as part of his campaign Dolinsky has promised imagine this is to drain the swamp in Ukraine and part of that is saying loot. Cinco is a problem and would need to go in my administration in in March of two thousand nineteen loot. Sankoh starts making all kinds of allegations about his version of the corruption going on in Ukraine and he says as part of that in an interview with the hill which is just it's so odd to me how the hill ends up being in the center of an these things but he says that US ambassador to Ukraine Marie Ianovich gave him a list of people who should not be prosecuted prosecuted now. The State Department says that is an outright fabrication but the president has promoted that version of events in a tweet so also so in early two thousand Nineteen Hunter Biden's term on that board ends and he leaves Burris MMA Muller's report comes out on April Eighteenth detailing his team's investigation into into Russia's interference in the two thousand sixteen election and Cinco eventually retracts this claim that the ambassador to the Ukraine gave him a list of people not to prosecute cute Zilenski then wins the election with seventy. Three percent of the vote and trump offers a very short call to congratulate slate him on his win. Then the State Department recalls our ambassador to Ukraine who we just spoke Marie Yana Novic and this is a big deal deal because she has been there long time she's a career diplomat and Democrats immediately alleged wrongdoing and that all the reasons given for recalling her allies so trump administration is in muller investigation is going on. This diplomat has been removed in sometime. I'm in May Rudy. Giuliani Ng has a meeting with a top Ukrainian anti corruption prosecutor in Paris and that prosecutor. Peter has declined to comment on what they talked about but he said the Burris MMA investigations should be reopened emend. Guiliani decides to travel travel to Ukraine because he because Rudy Giuliani can't keep his mouth shut. He tells everybody about this all over. Cable News says that information about investigations will be very very helpful to my client referring to the president and may turn out to be helpful to my government but then people found out about this and said that seems wrong and so he canceled the trip and at this time loot Cinco the prosecutor comes out and says there's no evidence of any wrongdoing by the Biden's but trump begins to explicitly explicitly referenced Biden's efforts in the Ukraine. This is a quote Biden. He calls them and says don't you dare persecute. If you don't fire this prosecutor the prosecutor is after after a son then he said if you hire the prosecutor you'll be okay and if you don't fire the prosecutor. We're not giving you two billion in loan guarantees or whatever he was supposed to give. Can you imagine if I did that. Who wish that was an anyway understandable but that is a direct quote about what he says so the breeze? MMA probe was dormant. Don't loot. Cinco had closed part of it. There's no no evidence that there was any wrongdoing on the part of the Biden's but at this point in May Giuliani in trump's start to really push on the story Dolinsky is inaugurated as the president and the administration notifies Congress that intends to release release the military aid to the Ukraine the a they need to battle Russia which is trying to invade their country so in July the start hearing about clashing between deny Dan Coats and trump in that coats days are numbered and then on on July eighteenth the state and defence departments are told that four hundred million dollars in aid to Ukraine would be withheld and members of Congress are told that the hold is part of an interagency delay then we have Robert Muller's testimony on July Twenty Fourth North on July twenty fifth after Robert Muller's testimony as Republicans are all walking around talking about the total exoneration. Shen of the president we have this phone call that has been the subject of the week's news cycle between trump and Zelinski and a call memorandum. Miranda was released. We described this on social media but I think it's worth walking through here where the president congratulates Zielinski on his his win all those alinsky points out. You already congratulated me on my win. Now you're calling to congratulate me because we have had a big win. In parliament and Zelinski says maybe we should win more often so you and I can talk on the phone more often and this is a theme with Zielinski. He has always pushing for people to come to Ukraine to visit him in person to take his phone on calls because he needs help in the course of the conversation trump says the United States does so much for Ukraine. It is not reciprocal ziprecruiter. We are a better friend to Ukraine than European countries. Merckel in Germany is all talk. We actually do things for you you and by the way I need a favor and the favor has two components. I he wants Alinsky government to pursue zoo a theory that the DNC actually collaborated with people in Ukraine in connection with the two thousand sixteen an election and specifically president seems to believe and this is based on reporting not communicated in the call itself but the president seems to believe leave that Hillary Clinton's missing emails that he loves to talk about are actually on a server in Ukraine with a company. An American company company called crowd strike. The second part of the favor is that he wants an investigation of Joe Biden allegedly stopping the prosecution of Burris MMA in order to protect his son and the Linski says I've been troubled by the way this has been reported because as I read that as I read the notes of the call the Linski tries to say yes without saying yes like will look into it. I'm going issue appoint a new prosecutor general and he kind of uses trump like language like I'm going to appoint really good people. They're going to be my people. It's all going to be good on on top of this. This favor language trump repeatedly suggests that Zilenski work with Attorney General William Barr with with regards to this investigation. He says repeatedly talked to rudy talk to our attorney general. They're going to help you get this investigation started and the you know repeated mentioning of our attorney general in this call is another huge source of concern to some members of Congress and then on July thirty first trump holds a phone call with Russian President Vladimir Putin now. We don't really know what they talk about except that the Russians claim they spoke about restoring hiring full relations with one with our between our two countries and so at this point in early August Giuliani's been on this little this little field trip up to Spain to meet with more representatives from Linski government and encouraging Zielinski government to investigate Hunter Biden S- Alinsky announces that he will travel to the united estates to meet with trump in Washington and trump now that Dan Coats has resigned has announced that he is going to bypass Sue Gordon who was the number two in I'm the director of National Intelligence and a career intelligence official and she resigns and he and he points Joseph Maguire as acting director of National Intelligence. That's on August eighth on August. Twelfth is when the anonymous whistle blower files a complaint with the inspector general offer the intelligence community the contents of the whistleblower complaint were released to Congress as we are recording today on Thursday and the Inspector General Michael Atkinson determined at the time that the complaint was credible and a matter of urgent concern so that's on August twelve under the requirements of the law once the intelligence community inspector general determined that the complaint is credible he or she the is to send it to the director of National Intelligence who then has seven days to send that complaint to Congress that is not what happens so we're at August twelfth off when the little blower complaint is filed August fifteenth is when Dan Coats Sue Gordon officially leave their position and by late August lawmakers. We're starting to notice that this aid Ukraine has been being withheld and exciting. It's important asking about even Mitch McConnell's I didn't they wouldn't tell me why they were withholding basically on September first Alinsky and vice president pence meet at with various world leaders in Poland trump was originally planned to attend the ceremony but remained in the United States because because of Hurricane Dorian pence says that he did not discuss Joe Biden was Alinsky but that he did suggest that aid was contingent on rooting out corruption so now we're in early. September Senator Chris Murphy the Democrat from Connecticut travels to Ukraine and meets with Linski and later tells Chuck Todd. That's Alinsky has expressed concern earn about Giuliani's overtures and the Washington Post editorial board writes that it has been reliably told that trump was attempting to force misters Alinsky Dolinsky Alinsky to intervene in the two thousand twenty. US presidential election by launching an investigation of the leading Democrat candidate Joe Biden on September Ninth Atkinson notifies the House House and Senate Intelligence Committee that it was a blower has filed a complaint but he does not really feel its contents or substance the next day on September Tenth House Intelligence Committee Chairman Adam Schiff rights to maguire the acting deny demanding that they received the complaint and this is where we really start to see the issues that were at the center of Maguire's testimony today before Congress is why acting director of National Intelligence McGuire did not send that complaint to Congress so this is September tenth trump announces on twitter that National Security Adviser John Bolton was fired. John Bolton said I was not fired resigned on September eleventh the trump administration finally releases that aid to the Ukraine and on September Thirteenth Gene Adam shifts subpoenas McGuire to compel him to disclose the whistleblower complaint and according to Adam Schiff denies office and a letter indicates that the whistleblower complaint is being withheld because of confidential and potentially privileged communications by people outside the intelligence community and that's when they start to assume that it's trump on the seventeenth maguire says he will not testify or handover the whistleblower complaint on the eighteenth post reports that the complaint involves trump's communications with the foreign leader on the Nineteenth Nineteenth Atkinson the inspector general briefs Congress in a closed door session tells them the complaint involves multiple events and not a single communication and the post breaks the story that the complaint complaint involves the Ukraine at this point. We start moving really really quickly. September twenty third trump suggests aid to Ukraine may have been withheld over corruption issues then on September twenty fourth earlier this week trump confirms he did withhold funding but suggests it was because other European countries should pay for Ukraine's military aid then he releases the transcript of the phone call at this point House Speaker Nancy Pelosi announced her support for a formal impeachment inquiry on September twenty fifth the White House release the rough transcript of the call and then today on September twenty six McGuire testified before the House Intelligence Committee also today there was audio released of the president basically implying that maybe the whistle blower is should be executed for treason but we'll get into that in a minute. Do you think we covered everything Beth. I really appreciate she ate the Washington Post for putting together a time line that we followed very closely in describing these events to you and so stepping way back big picture because that was a lot of detail it seems that the president has been using the opportunity to talk with a new new president in Ukraine and the money that Ukraine needs from the United States to try to get Ukraine to help him establish rush that the quote real election interference in Twenty sixteen was done by Democrats not by his campaign and end to discredit Joe Biden ahead of the twenty twenty election and in furtherance of those objectives he has had communications ends and has sent Rudy Giuliani around the world talking to everyone he will talk to him about this to try to establish what he believes are real facts in Rudy. Do Giuliani has described himself alternately as the personal lawyer to the president and as an envoy of the State Department so Mike Pompeo okay. Oh is hopping mad about the way Rudy Giuliani is talking about this. The president has talked about Rudy Giuliani and bill bar as though they were you. Just you know besties in this. Bill Barr says I don't know anything about this but what we now know. Is that it this whistleblower complaint goes to the Inspector General. He decides it's credible. The acting Deny Maguire says says I don't know what to do here because this is about the president in these are always about people who are in the intelligence community people that I am responsible for and so instead of taking this to Congress he takes it to the White House and the Department of Justice gets involved and apparently there there was a brief investigation of whether the president's call with President Dolinsky of Ukraine violated federal federal election laws right did he get a thing of value in this call is there some kind of FCC problem and the Department of Justice concluded. No it is really really difficult though to have confidence in that process because attorney general bar is named in this phone call over and over as someone who's deeply involved in what the president is asking for it is also difficult to have confidence here because attorney general bar has announced to the American public over and over that he doesn't believe a sitting president can be indicted for anything so it seems like kind of a farce to say that the DOJ investigated a criminal element of this when the DOJ doesn't believe the president can commit crime under the current Attorney General in that all brings us to a subpoena being sent to Acting Indiana McGuire. He testified in front of the House Intelligence Committee today. We're GONNA take a quick break and we'll come right back. Whether you're at the office scrolling through your phone or unwinding from a long day movements ever scroll blue light filtering glasses have you covered there built to protector is from Blue Light. 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Beta brand wants you to look good and feel good even at the office dress paint yoga pants feature ultra comfy styles designed designed to impress with thoughtful details like zippers front buttons and belt loops and they've got styles for all shapes sizes and taste from boot cut in straight legged skinny cropped and more available in standard colors black navy gray and khaki with seasonal and limited edition colors released monthly. I just got a pair of navy and I can't wait to wear them. I feel like between Navy me and black. The world is my voice ter- that's why we started wearing. Beta brands dress pant yoga pants visit Beta brand dot com slash pantsuit all lower case you get twenty percents off yours. Millions of women agree that these are the most comfortable pants you'll ever wear to work. That's Beta Brand B. E. T. A. B. R. A. dot com slash pantsuit all lower case to get twenty percent off your dress pants yoga pants before we talk about the hearing with DNA McGuire. We should note that at the same time just an hour or so before the hearing and we got to see the full whistleblower complaint. which is something that just last night? Sarah you and I were talking about wonderful ever see the full complaint well we did today and it has several parts it as as the inspector general told Congress earlier in the week it is not just about one phone call so a whistleblower wrote in this letter. I have a bunch of concerns in here. They are number one. There's this phone call and the whistle blower says I did not hear the phone. Call half a dozen or so people who heard it have talked to me. I find them credible because they're all telling me the same thing and the whistle blower goes on to describe a fact each pattern that is very consistent with the readout of the call. The White House issued earlier in the week and then the whistle blower says hey there's there's more the second part of the whistle blower complaint was basically that there were efforts on the part of the administration to restrict access to do this call and the records related to this call that the White House officials told the whistleblower that they were quote unquote directed by White House lawyers to remove the `electronic transcript from the computer system in which the transcripts are typically stored and to be put into a separate electronic system that is usually used to store and handle classified information of an especially sensitive nature this call was not that and to put the call in this system wasn't abuse of this electric system because the call did not contain anything classified or remotely sensitive and then part three of the complaint is titled Ongoing Concerns and it says a lot what it describes that a special representative for Ukraine negotiations and the US ambassador to the e you went to Kiev of and met with President Zielinski and other Ukrainian officials about how to quote navigate President Trump's asks of them. It also says that on August second Rudy Giuliani went to Spain to visit an advisor so that was part of the timeline that we just gave you that Giuliani any high contact with other Ukrainian officials and that trump had been talking to Dolinsky and you see this in the the White House call memorandum to trump keeps saying to his alinsky. I sure hope you invite your Putin and work this whole thing out and he's tined that statement to his understanding of why all of this is important right late today the New York Times James has reported that this whistle blower is someone in the CIA who has a deep understanding of our policy with respect to Ukraine and that it really comes across in this section in this section of the whistleblower complaint you see why this person is so deeply concerned because this person is connecting the dots between the president's asks of Ukraine and this aid to Ukraine and our relationship with Russia and our policy toward Russia. I Yeah I think that to me is so disturbing. It's bad enough that he would basically be extorting a foreign country to get involved in our elections by investigating seagate his rival but to me when I read the whistleblower complaint and when I read the summary of the call there is also this undercurrent undercurrent of especially if you are Alinsky and you know that Paul Manafort his former campaign chair worked for the Pro Russian government you know I'm I'm assuming that's Alinsky and his advisors watch the same news. The rest of us do that see Donald Trump talking about how great Vladimir Putin is and how they're going to have a great partnership and then he saying things like hope you make till with him so not only are you not getting the aid with which to defend yourself against Russia but you are also getting not so subtle pushes to cut a deal with Russia and so this is not just about the massive abdication Russian of your oath of office by reaching out to a foreign government to investigate your political rival but it really and truly really is a matter of national security that you are opening up avenues for Russia to expand their power when they've already annexed part of Ukraine and I have to believe that that's part of the reason you saw these this group of Seven Freshman Democrats who've worked in national security who've worked in the military decide this and no further like this is a huge national security risk and that's part of what makes all of this difficult because a president is entitled to set a foreign policy even one that I think most thus would say is ill advised what a president is not allowed to do is to do that for his personal interest instead of what what he perceives to be the national interest and so if this phone call were just Gosh. I hope you all make a deal. That would be awful awful. It would not be impeachable the part that brings this into the scope of high crimes and misdemeanors as I believe the constitution intends is that the president is connecting to all of this pressure his personal interest in being vindicated about his own election and in trying to be reelected by smearing Joe Biden and so that brings us to deny Maguire's testimony before the House Intelligence Elegance Committee today which I fought raised some really important questions about accountability in our system of government where we have three coequal branches because you had Democrats really angry that acting deny McGuire did not bring this whistleblower complaint to Congress until he got a subpoena subpoena and instead took it to the White House and said Hey guy who is alleged to have done something wrong and attorney general whose whose name is all over the place ace in connection with that. What do you think I should do here. Can I just say something. This is what I kept thinking the whole time. Look I think I agree with the Democrats rats. I don't find McGuire to be you know a total trump loyalist in the the the sort of example of bill bar or Lindau ski or any of those people I think he's trying the best he can and I believe he you know loves his country entry and his loyal and all the things. Did you not learn anything from Jim. Comey just because you think think it's unprecedented just because you think it's a completely unique situation. You're a military guy. Stick to the process assess. Don't decide to use your own judgment that the process no longer applies America. Have we not learned. This doesn't lead anywhere you're good if you follow the process and it's a terrible outcome than it is. Congress's job to change the process. My friend not yours well. I think part of what he he was saying is that he read the process to be ambiguous because the whistleblower complaint concern someone who is not a member of the intelligence elegance community and so I think he was saying the letter of the law was unclear to me and given the potential for executive privilege to be claimed and the lack of clarity and the letter of the law. This is what I did now. I would not have made that decision under these circumstances. I don't think but as I listened today it it is very easy to imagine this hearing going exactly the opposite way where he in fact took the complaint directly to Congress and Republicans ends on the House Intelligence Committee slammed him for saying that was inappropriate under the very letter of the law. I mean he probably watched Jim. Komi and Bob Muller caller gets skewered in six directions because these situations are so difficult so I agree with you. I don't think he did anything nefarious. I think what he did ignored toward the reality of all of the factors of the trump administration at play here and I also don't think that we should spend too much time trying to shame this individual vigil because we got to the right place and some members of Congress did actually ask questions about how these laws need to be revised to contemplate a situation like that so there some encouraging moments. I thought in the hearing in that people were thinking about the process to well. I'm not trying to shame him. I'm just trying to say America. Yeah particularly people in our government. I think we've established that like we've turned a corner and all of our circumstances are going to be unique in an unprecedented in many many ways so don't don't put that on your shoulders. I think what really happened is that he decided that you know when I hear him explaining. This wasn't a member of the intelligence committee or this isn't a this wasn't a member of the intelligence community and I had to think about the members of the administration. I feel like ultimately he decided that he was a member of the executive branch instead of a member of the like in his the prioritization of his memberships a being a member of the executive branch took precedent over being a member of the intelligence community when I heard him testifying explaining how he made that decision and what he was thinking talking through. It's not that I thought any of it. was you know completely irrational but I did get a very Jim Komi vibe of like I just saw this plane out and I thought I better do this. Instead Ed and you know not that. I think he was a complete idiot to do that. I get why he did it. I just wish we would learn this lesson. Don't do that. Don't don't don't do that like stick. Take to the stick to the process and the process was written for the you know sort of like the Rita Law with the intent in mind and the intent was as a member of the intelligence community and I feel like what happened is that he became a member of the administration instead. I have sympathy for his position. This was mostly a process hearing. There was not a lot of discussion of the substance of the whistleblower complaint. I think the most significant moments were when he said he meaning acting DNA McGuire. He said he thinks the whistleblower followed the law aw did what the whistle blower was supposed to do. He thinks the inspector general is absolutely credible. He couldn't have spoken in more confident terms about the work of inspector general who found this was a blowers complaint credible and found it to be an urgent concern but needed to be shared with Congress and so you did not the trump administration official toeing the party line his moments of being heated were when he was accused of not following the law and I I think he genuinely believes that he tried to follow the law and the law was ambiguous and that's really what today's hearing was about. There were no blockbuster moments. I really was impressed with the way Adam Schiff chaired this hearing because he made sure every time time expired that acting. DNA McGuire there had an opportunity to complete his thoughts to say anything he wanted to say I thought he kept the heat in the room down as much as anyone can. In hearings things like this he did not take the bait from some of the just completely unproductive and unsubstantiated things that people like Devin Nunez were saying so I was re my key takeaway today was I was really impressed by Shearman Schiff and comforted that he's in that role I also thought he did an exceptional job of just being a prosecutor and piecing about what he was saying really getting the information out of him that he you wanted and that he thought clarified the issue and really laid out the problems with this call with the complaint with the trump administration's behavior in doing so like you said like in a very kind of calm way wasn't. LemMe Yell at you until you flush admit it. It was just like well. How about at this. How about this. Oh well. What about this? He just did a really good job. It's an unusual set of gifts to be as eloquent as he is and also to be such a good listener uh-huh. I don't see a lot of shifting in the Republican talking points on these issues. A lot was made of the fact that the whistle blower or did not observe events described in the complaint firsthand. I don't find that compelling. I wish that the whistle blower had been someone. I'm one who saw it firsthand. That certainly would be easier and cleaner. I also am happy that someone stood up and said. I think this is wrong because I do think this. This is wrong in one of my big takeaways from McGuire today who kept saying I'm constrained by my role. This is the situation I'm in. I'm doing doing my best to navigate it but this is my lane and there are lots of things outside my layment. I'm not gonNA talk about. I really think we're in a crisis of people who are willing to stay in Mary. Lane and compartmentalize. What we need. Are More people like this whistleblower who are saying. Maybe it's not my lane but it's not okay and we need to do something about it. The the reason I don't take issue with the fact that the whistle blower didn't see many of these things first-hand is that I mean they're an intelligence. Intelligence officer isn't their job to observe things and then report. I mean isn't this person just using the skills will that we've entrusted with them the to them as the United States government is United States intelligence committee so you know that's why I don't necessarily take huge issue that it wasn't a direct witness. Also it seems like if it was a direct witness. It would be much harder to keep that person's identity secret. I mean it feels like all these people who knew if I come out and blow the whistle. They'll know immediately. It's me went to this person and said okay. Hey you do it for us. I guess he was like it was like a group meeting where I was like okay well. We can't say they'll immediately figure out. It was us. You're going to have to file the complaint. It also seems to be pretty disingenuous ingenuous to be making too much of the fact that this person wasn't a direct witness when the White House has confirmed a lot of what's in the lane through releasing that call memorandum through the President's own statements. I mean the President Kinda wants to have it every way and that's not unusual for him and that's not unusual for Rudy Giuliani for sure are and I thought another productive aspect of this hearing was questioning what Rudy Giuliani is doing and how dangerous it is to have someone who is not part heard of the State Department running around acting like an American diplomat. The question was put to McGuire directly does Giuliani Johny have security clearance. What is his role and he said I don't know and I learned about his activities by watching TV just like you do that's disturbing recently. We were being interviewed and you said what we really want people to do is to articulate their values and not just respond out of fear so often when people talk about politics they really you know sort of speak about what they're afraid trade of respond out of that fear instead of articulating their values and moving forward from there. I think that we have witnessed many moderate. Democrats worked through that process but I still hear so many people that I talked to of my everyday life really speaking out of fear when it comes to this issue and impeachment I think with the Democrats and with Nancy Pelosi see you know. I don't think Nancy Pelosi step forward with this with her support of the impeachment inquiry because she decided that no matter what it's a political win. I think that Nancy Pelosi as the speaker of the house was looking at not just being the party leader but being the a sort of head of this congressional institution and if he's allowed to cross this line with no consequences then you know the idea that our constitution setup coequal branches SORTA ceases to exist in my opinion not to be hyperbolic but you know I keep hearing people talk about all this is going on and where people are there was even a a a poll that came out today that said over fifty percent of people support impeachment but there are still electoral fears and I think we all have to move past that. I have to believe that these particular some of these moderate. Democrats just said like why would I put my life on the line because the election of Donald Trump helped me they see things so clearly that I thought I had to participate and then let my fear of donald trump swallow all those values and All my vision just to stay in his office and I applaud them for that and I think the rest of us have to do the same like we just have to articulate our values and look at the information this complaint and in that call not be consumed with electoral fears. political calculus is about twenty twenty. I think we just I have to say our values are the rule of law. Our values are that elections are for American citizens the foreign nations to participate in that our values are spreading the supporting the spread of democracy and not the spread of Russian aggression and then move forward from there and not let this become. How does this play out in the twenty twenty. What happens snacks. I mean I I think at this point with everything. That's happened this week. It is exactly that process that you articulated. We cannot just just respond emotionally out of fear about what this means for the future. We have to stay focused on whether or not what what is happening. Now represents our values as a country for me. There is also an element in this of insisting that we be able to believe what is right in front of us set him allowing everything to be explained away through a lens of partisanship when Republicans ends try to spin this call memorandum it just makes my blood boil because it seems like the most blatant moment in a long trajectory rectory of trying to say no what you see isn't what is actually going on this week. This is a silly example but it keeps coming to mind for for me. I Wednesday night checked into a hotel pretty late and I was alone and I walked to my room. I get my room key. I walked to my Ram. I opened the door and all I can see from the door is that the light is on. The bed is unmade okay so I quickly closed the door and I go back to the front desk and I say hi. The bed is not made in this room in the person behind. The desk is like will with somebody else in there well. I don't know I didn't stick around to find out once I saw unmade bed in a light on I left and the person just asked me all these questions and his kinda wondering out aloud how this could have happened and I kept thinking. I understand why that is all part of what you're thinking about. But the critical issue right now to me is that I can't stay in this room and I need to be in another room and that is how I feel about all of these theatrics about the president. I understand why Republicans would rather talk about Joe Biden. I understand why Republicans would rather talk about Democrats and all the partisan things they believe Democrats do that are frustrating to them. I understand why all this is in your mind but the key question to me that Republicans have got to stop avoiding is is what is right right in front of you acceptable. There is a call memorandum that this White House put out into the world as true showing us what was said here and it was much more direct than I expected it to be. I thought this would be a little more subtle than it was but it was very clear. Leave leave leaning on this guy and then we watch a press conference where president trump and president dolinsky stand next to each other and president Zielinski who is in the horrible position of trying to do damage control with European countries after the release of this call transcript who still needs the United States help desperately. Lee is being asked whether he felt pressured. He's trying to gain the confidence of his country at home and he says no and the President Says No of course not well. What is he supposed to say you know. What is he going to say. In this context there is nothing about Donald trump that makes in any of this story as the whistle blower describes. It sound wrong not one thing I see no evidence that Donald trump is not exactly exactly what this whistleblower describes and so I think impeachment is important now for Americans to reclaim our sense of some kind kind of collective truth in the world. The New York Times is reporting that online trolls are already talking in chat rooms about how how to reclaim this narrative for the president and they are talking about how in our previous impeachment proceedings we have not had social media the way we we have it today and that this is going to be a whole new ballgame of trying to convince us all that what we see with our eyes is not what's real and that is why I'm so grateful for Democrats taking the political risk to do this even though the Senate might not remove him and even though it might cost them electorally because at some point we have to insist list that what we see and hear Israel and we will act on it not only do I agree with you and do I think it's important and for us to reclaim the facts and look at things clearly but I think part of that assessment and again back to the importance of this national security who what do you think is tickled pink. That's Alinsky is in trouble with European allies that he's thrust into the world's stage and put in the the middle of this fight that he now is struggling most likely to men relationships with NATO members so that he can get the eighty needs to defend his country against Russia. I mean he must be so happy right now. And I is an American. I'm not in the business of making Vladimir Putin. Happy and I don't care how much you want to spin this and you wanna tell me there's no there there. I can read. It's not that long long. This is not the mullahs report and you don't need a chart. It's all right there and it's all incredibly incredibly problematic back and that is a putting it kindly and I don't believe this is the first time that a memorandum has been putting a different electronic drawer. has of the president's personal political. There's lots of calls with Putin in that drawer it would be. I think an act of courage for more people who have observed these events to come forward. I think it is just time for us to collectively determine even if devoted for president trump this is a gamble that has not paid off and I understand and have for many many the months been of the mind that Americans need to defeat him at the ballot box but the constant obstruction of Congress's efforts to to exercise oversight and today the president's words that people who report his improper actions are comparable to spies is who have committed treason. Tell me that we are at a breaking point. That congress doesn't mean anything if Congress cannot step up here so I'm glad they're doing it. I'm glad they're doing it quickly and I think it's GonNa feel like a Zeitgeist for several weeks but we we need this That's just where I am. I think America just needs this test because what we have allowed to happen to this point is unforgivable and forgivable and to allow it to go on when this president continues in front of crowds to talk about how they should be chanting eight more years four more years I mean he is telling us every single day that he does not give a damn about our norms and about our process about our constitution and just enough it's enough. It's time to act and I hear this undercurrent of. I mean it's trauma. I think we should just name it for what it is. I think at this point I have heard so many times. I can't get my hopes up if he gets away with everything but we know what will happen. He gets away from everything. It's exactly like what I said about well. I don't know if America's Carr's ready for a woman president. Are you ready. Just worry about yourself. Speak firmly about where you stand. If you think this is wrong the new should articulate what the president did was wrong and he should be impeached and removed from office because of it period. That's what matters. It's a democracy. I know we're all traumatized. From Twenty sixteen I am still traumatized from two thousand sixteen and I am traumatized from the cavenaugh hearing and I am traumatized just from the Mullahs report and I am traumatized from all the ways in which this man has stepped forward and continue to illustrate what he said from the beginning which is I could shoot somebody in Times Square and get away with it. I get it and we should name that. We should feel our feelings and I'm here to affirm your feelings. Sometimes I feel the same way but no one's going to save us from this. You know we have to step up in participate and we have to step up and call a representatives and we have to step up in conversation and say hey what he did was wrong and a violation of his oath of office and he deserves to be impeached and removed because of it period. I don't care what it means for twenty twenty twenty. I don't care what he's gotten away with in the past right now in this moment I can read. I know what's important to our democracy. Agree isn't a democracy is an American citizen and this should not stand yeah. The electorate is not some disembodied entities of us. We are the electorate on the other end so you often talk about and I love to hear you say this era that righteous anger is your favorite emotion. Mine is being the cool head right. I take a lot of pride in being rational and let me see all sides of something and so in that way I relate very much like the Ben Sasse is and the Mitt Romney's of the world world who are always saying well. Let's not rush to judgment. I would like to submit on behalf of many of us cool heads in the electorate. This isn't a rush to judgment judgment and it's not wrong to look at this whistleblower complaint in the context of the last few years compartmentalizing analyzing everything does not benefit us. Sometimes we need to look at the whole and so in Mitt Romney reads this and says he's troubled. I mean to paraphrase one of our great artists. We knew he was trouble when he walked in and it is okay to have that sense of him. It is okay to look at this and say this is wrong and it is in character for him. It follows everything that we've witnessed for the last few years and it is one too many. I just don't think we need to sort this out and say Gosh. Why is everybody going so fast slowdown. It's premature to talk about impeachment with respect to this issue. It's not this is the top of a very very tall tower that is starting to fall down and it is a it is the most public damage to our democracy that we could possibly have because because it not only looks like we have an incompetent self-dealing president it who has been accused of all manner manner of abuses of power as they relate to women but it also says he is abusing power on the global stage and it also says other countries can't trust it's it's too many and the cooler heads among us can also say that we don't have to forever decide that there's never a line fine because we're just over here being so unemotional. You know you often say that president trump ges makes you more of who you are and and I think that's why the people who saw the election of Donald Trump as an opportunity entity to step up and lead in the absence of real leadership appear even more authentic authentic to me in this moment and I'm ready to lean in and listen to them and follow their lead and the people who decided that the election of Donald Trump was the time to sacrifice their values and follow no matter what the leadership at the top was doing have lost all moral authority to me and I don't WanNa hear it. You know we'll how see why would I listen to you. You do what you have illustrated over and over and over again Lindsey Graham Mitch McConnell CBS member upon member of the United States House of Representatives and the United States Senate. You do whatever he says and so now that we're presenting an opportunity where we need to investigate what he did. Why would you ever think that you're in a position to lead you have shown over and over again. All you're willing to do is follow him and so again the particularly members of the freshman class and other people in Congress who have said you know the fact that he's elected means. We need more leadership. Those are the people I'm listening to and those are the people that I'm willing to a follow in this moment. Which is a reminder that tomorrow we will be with one of those. People Amy mcgraff in Louisville Kentucky for our Nuance Nation Tour. We are looking forward to seeing many of you there. We will be back here with you on Tuesday to continue this discussion. I am certain more things will develop between now and then stay with us on twitter instagram and Petri on where you can hear our most current thoughts about whatever the day's news brings. Thank you all for being with us and for thinking hard about about these important issues keep on Joan Dylan. Garvan produces pantsuit politics every week. Thanks for making a sound better dylan. Elise snap is our managing director which means means we could not make it without her scheduling organization feedback in creativity. Thank you elise. We couldn't make pantsuit politics without support from our listeners go to Patriot dot com slash pantsuit politics to learn how you can receive more nuance and help us make the show special things to our executive producers who have committed to supporting us in a major life giving way are are executive producers are. Tracy put off to Miller David McWilliams Joshua Allen Linda Rucker. Martha Bernard Sqi Melanie Crazy and Tiffany Hasler slur our theme music is composed and performed by Dante Lima. 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The Real World: Ukraine

What A Day

16:36 min | 11 months ago

The Real World: Ukraine

"It's veterans day Monday November eleventh. I'm Akilah Hughes I'm Gideon Resnik and this is what a day that Tony Hawkes. Pro Skater. Four of Daily News podcasts. I'll be doing. This whole show is banned Marghera on today's show. The impeachment inquiry enters a new phase progressive lawyer chased Bodine wins his race to become San Francisco's district attorney and then some headlines Okay so public hearings for the impeachment. Investigation begin on Wednesday. Finally we get to hear from people involved in this whole Ukraine bribery very quid pro quo debacle and not just from news pundits reading from leaks transcripts. It's been hard to keep up. It's going to continue to be hard to keep up. There's a lot of people involved you said it MHM So with this next segment. We're going to introduce you to the three people who will be testifying. I and we're GONNA put them in some smart very intellectual context. Do they all stick in your brain. This is the true story. True story of three strange diplomats to the EU and Ukraine. Absolutely perfect phone goal picked sit in the House of Representatives be interrogated and have their lies and truths tapes. Find out what happens when people stop being polite. He told me it was perfect insect and start getting real the real world Kiev impeachment addition presidential season forty five. My dreams of having a real world segment have come true please. I'm just imagining Johnny Bananas. Talking to a House panel about something if only I up testifying on. Wednesday is former ambassador to Ukraine. Bill Taylor now you may remember him from being on that text chain where he red flag the whole quid pro quo thing Taylor is kind of a star. Yeah but Donald Trump trump is not a fan. Though in a tweet. He called him quote. Never trumper diplomat Bill Taylor parentheses. Who I don't know he does know him but also let me tell you who Taylor really is in his private testimony so far which we're just GONNA call confessionals? He's claimed that he had a quote clear. Understanding that foreign aid to Ukraine was conditioned upon Ukraine investigating. Joe Biden Son Hunter Biden. He even identified. Rudy Giuliani as the main instigator behind this whole plan. So He's definitely not afraid of drama and he's definitely not here to make friends just like Nia from the real world Portland which originally aired twenty thirteen tremendous job on wine being the bigger person but now it's game over and up. I'm the last person you ever want. And by why now why. Yeah okay so Nia who we just heard. I was actually talking about how she was about to beat her. housemate johnny over the head with a hairdryer. So it's like a little bit different but bill is expected to throw Rudy Giuliani under the bus again because this whole impeachment thing could have been avoided if anyone ever listened to build advice. BTU special skill is that he's apparently Taipei and dims think he'll make a great witness because of his that's excellent memory and detailed note taking also. He's a war veteran. He graduated from West Point. So when trump inevitably calls terrible and stinky and un-american some Republicans look ins might lightly scold him they might our second housemate is this guy So next up and also on Wednesday is the testimony of George Kent. Who's been the deputy assistant secretary for European and Eurasian Affairs since September two thousand eighteen? He's a somewhat obscured diplomat. He's been working on stopping Russia from taking over parts of the Ukraine so far in the impeachment inquiry kipnes role has been to corroborate things. That have already been said by Bill Taylor by Marie Ivanovich. Who is the ambassador Ukraine Ukraine? We're GONNA get to earn a second. So Georgia's kind of like Jack Quiz in the real World San Diego Circa two thousand and four who intrigued by Randy and Robbins. Unexpected hookup decided decided to do what anyone would do he He stood near the door and he listened so after that he reported back to the rest of the housemates that the duo did hook up and in fact randy he was overheard saying Boom Bazooka. Joe Joe Joe Drunken you dislike going Joe. Oh I don't know a good laugh. Yeah we did. We sure did. I don't ever want to hear that phrase again. Oh Man Boom Bazooka Joe so this is a weird thing to say during an orgasm but it's just as bizarre as say telling Ukraine they can expect the direct deposit when they provide gossip on on baby biden so for your own understanding at home. Boom Bazooka Joe Equals Quid. Pro Quo on Friday. We'll finally get the testimony of Marie. Ivanovich our third housemate and former ambassador to Ukraine conservatives are not huge fans and we also now know that the current United States ambassador. Marie he your age has bad mouth. The president of the United States to Ukrainian officials. Yeah that's not true it's actually part of a smear campaign launched Earlier this year against Giovanni Vich to remove her from office Unlike Bill Taylor and George Kent. Marie was personally victimized by the president and removed from her post in a sudden and extremely reality. TV where the twist similar to Svetlana housemate in two thousand six is the real world key West because she was obviously similarly we victimized in ostracized guys. I can make on this horrible person. You're not only in the right way I haven't been. I've been doing nothing but listening to everybody. I'm not saying you're touching very emotional music. Well you didn't ask but Svetlana believed that she could manage the tanning salon even as the youngest person that season and instead of letting her try to do our job. The other cast mates pushed her out while in her private confessional Ivanovich stated that she believed she was being targeted by quote people with clearly questionable motives like trump and Giuliani who sought to get rid of her because she was obstructing their plans in Ukraine. She's an immigrant whose family is from the Soviet Union. She's a career diplomat rather than an appointee and according to one Ukranian journalists. She's very reserved served and extremely cautious not the life of the party. But we respect and Stan diligent introvert. Yes so we're following those were snaps from get hit. But we're following all the drama and reveals of this real world impeachment and hopefully this helps you remember the testimonies and who they're coming from this week. So if not just just remember Bill Taylor Swift Lee called out the quid pro quo and a taxi Taylor Swift. George can't stand rudy. Giuliani at all. Can't can't you get it. And how do you solve a problem like Marie. Why because they thought she was a problem and they acid her anyway? It's going to be a long season. Impressive real world knowledge and reclaim. TV Dean a thirty nine year old public look defender supported by the CO founders of black lives matter was elected as San. Francisco's Neck's district attorney on Saturday. After ballots tallied from election night on November fifth. He ran the campaign to reduce. Mass incarceration in will now serve one of the largest cities in the United States. BUDEINA has a fascinating life story. He's a Yale Grad and Rhodes scholar. And and he's also been personally impacted by the criminal justice system. His parents were in jail for his entire childhood. Gideon talk a bit more about the specifics of his campaign. Yeah Bodine has said that. Having to visited his parents who were incarcerated sort of fueled him to want to take on a mass incarceration the country. This notion that seeing them you know literally early through bars is something that had the light bulb go off for him that something was deeply deeply wrong. He was a former deputy public defender and the story of his parents is actually pretty remarkable He tells he was dropped off at a babysitter when he was fourteen months old. His parents who were members of the weather underground took part in a deadly car robbery and upstate New York. That left two police officers and a security guard debt and that's the backdrop of his life as a child. His mother was in jail for twenty two years years and his father might end up spending the rest of his life. Incarcerated Dean's campaign because of this influence was was sort of shaped on the issues of eliminating in cash bail expanding mental health diversion programs radical racial bias in the criminal. Justice System This past Saturday like we said was when he declared victory at which when he was leading his opponent by over eight thousand votes and the person who is the closest to him that he was in front of was interim. Da Suzy Loftus. She was formerly the head of the San Francisco Cisco Police Commission and was the favourite of basically all of California's democratic establishment. Okay well yeah. He's obviously not establishment. He's more in line with criminal criminal justice reform activists and it seems like people like Bodine. They make typical party leaders. Uncomfortable with SORTA revolutionary ideas about the way the world could work instead instead of playing within the bounds of what already exists right right and basically throughout this entire campaign there were various police unions like the San the average Cisco Police Officers Association. That really wanted to make Budeina into a bogeyman. They call them quote the number one choice of criminals and gang members and spent at six hundred thousand dollars worth of attack ads against him. But Bodine is not an anomaly. He is part of a broader group of reformers that are specifically typically seeking this office around the country and it's a trend that sort of increased over the last couple of years with the rise and greater prominence of broader left left movement in the United States. And the thing that all these people have in common is they are seeking these jobs of. Da to reduce mass incarceration nation. The idea is basically like they get into office and they can start to rewrite the rules of what this person even does. The role no longer should be to over police in jail. L. But to provide these holistic community approaches that they can look at mental health housing healthcare substance abuse. All of those things. figure out how to deal with it in in a way that is not just throwing people in jail so dean was backed by this growing movement from people that have been elected before him that we're running on similar platforms phillies district attorney. Larry Crasner Rachel Rawlins in Boston. Kim Fox in Chicago and he's just the latest one obviously to win and it's adding a few for all of these people who are looking to this office as a way to to change things to actually keep running and and keep going. Yeah I mean it is really cool. That there's this club of reformers murs that across the country. They're all sort of sharing in these victories. And they get to look forward to the changes they get to make. Yeah there's momentum to it Tiffany Coban is another one. She was a young first-time candidate and former public defender. Really really narrowly lost a race earlier this year for Queens d by just sixty votes but she looks back at it and says she pushed the primary way to the left she pushed the Alternate Victor Melinda Katz to the left and since then she's his campaign for Bodine and she's tried to also look for other candidates like this to keep running for these races. I spoke about jeans race and the movement that is developing developing at large. If we see that crime is down in most places but we still have the highest incarceration rates And that's something that this new grouping of district attorneys stories are are really confronting and battling and saying. Hey that's not the source of public safety Really stability and training public health issues batch. That's how we achieve public safety. Coban also emphasized that it's crucial for people to start paying attention and keep being involved in these races because of just how swiftly and drastically physically district attorney's can make changes when you think about it's an executive power right There aren't really that many checks a district attorney on day. One can go go in and say hey I am no longer asking for cash bail and when that happens literally hundreds and thousands of people will no longer be sitting behind bars legally innocent Just because they're too poor to to buy their constitutional right to the to the presumption innocent you will have hundreds and thousands of people who won't be sitting in a cage because they're struggling with substance use disorder a public health issue right and we'll have opportunities To engage in harm reduction services. Kid Be there are very very quickly. Tangible things that happened immediately people like Coban and Bodine are reinventing the role all of the DA and with that in mind is going to be exciting to see how many more of these candidates continue to run and actually win the races in the future and now to some ads there over two million burglaries reported every year. That's one every thirteen seconds. And what's is crazy. Is that only one. In five homes have home security. That's why simply safe is transforming home security and getting you the best most reliable protection available with no contracts or hidden fees around the clock monitoring just fifteen dollars a month visit simplisafe dot com slash. What a day to get free shipping and a sixty day risk-free trial that simplisafe they've dot com slash simplisafe dot com slash? What a day now? Back to the show Let's wrap up. With some headlines Head Aligns Bolivian president. Ed Morales has stepped down from his position after almost a month of escalating demonstrations following his most recent election. Protesters were unhappy about his attempts. Wants to do away with term limits and reports of alleged election fraud on Sunday the police the military and the country's main labor union called for his resignation as Bolivia's head of state for almost fourteen eighteen years he was the country's first indigenous president in the longest serving president in Latin America who ran on a platform of reducing income inequality Morales says described as ousting as a military coup. The four black women who helped America when the space race and also inspired the film hidden. Figures are set to finally get the recognition. They deserved a long time ago. Katherine Johnson then Dorothee von. Mary Jackson Dr Christine. Darden will receive Congressional Gold Medals for their work with NASA Johnson. Darden are the only two still living to receive the honor. The award states that their work quote exemplifies the experiences of hundreds of women who worked as computers mathematicians engineers. Hell yeah and maybe this is controversial version. But if NASA had more women like them they wouldn't have had to fake the moon landing noncontroversial at all. We need more people speaking truth. The Miami Heat has suspended guard dion waiters. After he suffered vertu panic attack on edibles during eighteen flight. Very twenty thirteen of him. They put the doses around the package now. The team announce that leaders suspended for ten games without pay for quote conduct conduct detrimental to the team promoting stony vibes and blazey army. Sesame Street celebrated its Fiftieth Birthday. On Sunday festivities included the Empire State building honoring big bird with yellow and green lights and a video promoting its fiftieth season its final season before it switches to. Hbo Max Aside from creating an iconic cast of of colorful muppets. The show has always aimed to educate but I still have no idea how to actually get to sesame street. Anybody could help me call. Can you tell me how to get there. Where is it and those are the headlines that's offered today? I'm baby baby. So if you like the show make sure subscribe. Give us a rating lever view. Find me on five star and tell your friends to listen by the way if you're into reading and not just websites that teach you how career like me. What Day is also a nightly newsletter? Check it out and subscribe at crooked dot com slash newsletters. I'm getting resnick. And that's how you win the road. Rules Challenge Alan Jr.. What a day is a product of Media it's reported and mixed by Charlotte. Landis Sam your time is our assistant producer or writer John Milstein in our senior producer is Katie log. The theme music is by calling Gilead and to shot.

Ukraine Bodine Bill Taylor Marie Ivanovich Rudy Giuliani United States Donald Trump George Kent president Bazooka Joe Gideon Resnik Johnny Bananas Ukraine Ukraine Nia Hunter Biden Budeina House of Representatives Dean EU
Freedom of Expression in Crimea: Voices From Ukraine

CFR On the Record

51:39 min | 10 months ago

Freedom of Expression in Crimea: Voices From Ukraine

"This event is presented by the Council on Foreign Relations. I want to I welcome. We have with US Andrei recall. Who is the president of Ukraine? And you have his bio and Maria Tomac who's the CO founder of the Media Initiative for Human Rights which is Human Rights Investigation Organization. That's focused on the Russia Ukraine conflict. So welcome to both of you and thank you for being here Oleg. I'm going to begin with you and I'm I'm GonNa ask you to tell us a bit. About what the experience of being in that Russian prison was was like on a day-to-day basis and how you made the decision to launch a hunger strike and what you thought would Komo of that. Well it's not really interesting to talk about that a person who has never been there. It's hard took explain it to someone. A unique time for this in regards to hunger stirred strike. I started after four years being detained paint of my imprisonment and I realized then this situation with political prisoners of you queen wearing a dead end and nothing was happening so I had to be more radical so I decided to have a hunger strike for myself and for all of the fallow Ukrainians hands who were in prison. They were sixty four people right right before the World Cup that was about to take place in Russia to make it more load. Of course I realized what kind of person put in us and I realized that he wouldn't releases releases after hunger strike and he wouldn't give up but at least it could bring attention to the problem of Ukrainian political prisoners. And I was able able to attract attention for this. I know you have said you are not sure that your arrest and trial were a reaction to your profile and your role as a filmmaker and a creative artist. But I want to prove you a little bit on that and ask whether the choice to arrest someone who had and level of visibility you know you think was a deliberate one or in a sense. Was it a mistake. Because your imprisonment did elicit international international outcry at a level that you know that someone else would not have as I said before and not once that my arrest was not related with my movie career and they were just. They knew who they didn't really care. And it wasn't just on purpose. They just needed to fabricate case for their propaganda to show. I know that in Crimea there is a Ukrainian terrorist group and therefore they just detained anybody they could and then Tertius us yes and they wanted to take and fashions for us as a result four of us. We were detained for other people. They were able to escape. So it's just Sir I was misfortunate to get into that circle and I was labeled as the main because I was related with my down with cave and I was doing the work work and they offered me if I could testify and they. They told me to testify against Ukrainian in government. I will receive seven years if I refuse. They guaranteed that I would be sentenced to twenty years as an organizer and of course I refused right away but This way they gave me twenty years and this quality that you have refusing that deal that would have given you just a seven seven year sentence rather than a twenty year sentence your decision to go on hunger strike and your maintain maintenance that hunger strike for months and you're you're famous quote that you are a nail that will not bend. Can you tell us a little bit about where that comes comes from what conviction lies behind that. Why you're not willing to compromise? What what you see as the stakes the positions you've taken the stance taken? I don't know the answer to these questions. I don't know what convictions I who I have. I just I love my country and didn't want to make concessions with the enemy of my country. So Oh my convictions. Everything that I fought for and all of the people that died all of the franchise. There are things that the person cannot do. You will not just go outside and you see an old lady fallen you will help her. Raise why you wouldn't just miss her. Because it's a moral principles that you would help this grandma the same with me. I have moral principles that I cannot just step over Andre. I want to bring you into the conversation. Ask a little bit about the work of Ukrainian pen in this difficult period of conflict and the occupation and annexation of Crimea. How are writers and intellectuals and those in the creative community faring right now in Ukraine well Penn Ukraine Ukraine became very active organization in the last seven years eight years? We have a little projects which are aimed actually to promote open in discussion but also to look after the human rights cases and we have a lot of cases actually in Crimea in Russia. Most of the cases now are connected with imprisoned. Crimean tartars. School did not accept annexation and then they were transferred to Russian prisons to the continent. And I brought. That's how materials I hope you will take them coal with names and with concrete cases but generally nobody knows how many a Ukrainian citizens are kidnapped and sentenced in Russia or on the territories controlled by separatists. So I mean we are not involved in the political legal struggle we are actually looking. After cases of journalists bloggers writers and one of the case is actually ended up almost ended up successfully one of mccalla it's an old Crimea and journalists Ukrainian who was officially by Russian court bent from publicly expressed in his thoughts and now finally I think this ban was lifted. But he's still cannot. He needs to go for medical treatment to Ukraine Hick. Outlive you Crimea. But I mean we. We have a lot of active members who are actually looking can into new cases and sharing the information and not only actually working with Ukrainian cases cases of Ukrainians sentenced. Oh kidnapped by Russia's but also now we have a new issue in Belarus because I'm in several members and several journalists and writers in Belarus where fined or arrested by Borussia police for protesting against Belarus to be swollen up by Russian Federation at the same time S. officially officially Lukashenko opposes opposes this some kind of integration mutual integration of two states and what about the the current Ukrainian government. How supportive have they been out? These efforts to ensure press freedom protects the rights of journalists and writers. We have several issues actually. uh-huh which have to be discussed on the national level because there is a new project of a law or no mass media today in Ukraine which almost quotes some of the clothes over Russian law so there is an attempt by new government to control all what journalists can say what cannot say I mean. Generally it is officially aimed against this information. Fake News but There was fear that actually people who can be accused of sharing fake news information can be imprisoned journalists. Which is I? Don't think it is acceptable civilized this country but we we do have a problem with fake news and information. Actually most of this This this information cubs from Russian sources and from Russia. I mean like recently when Ukrainian president was in Oman instead of Carpathian mountains in the resort and and actually the photographs of him from Oman. Hotel leaked only after that actually but they were leaked through pro-russian website. STRANA tonight so I mean they should be quite intelligent balanced found between real fight information. They were real photographs and a post factum. The office of the President informed that he is on holiday in Amman but at the same time he is going to have meetings on the highest level level actually died soon after who returned home but generally we have several more cases when they journalists and activists attacked in the province different provinces of Ukraine because they are like bothering local authorities or police etc.. Don't follow in all all the cases because I mean we have enough journalistic associations and organizations but I mean we're keeping an eye on it. Yeah so don't Maria. I wonder if you could talk a bit about Crimea specifically and what the environment is like. They're for free expression. How have have things changed in the last four years? Well a the simple answer is that there's no space of course for freedom of speech in Crimea. Currently Crimea is an occupied territory with all the consequences of these legal status which is however however not recognized by the occupying our by Russia which considers Crimea as the federal region of Russian Federation and imposes their their loss us which has actually another violation of international humanitarian law I probably will not surprise you by saying that. There is no freedom of speech each there that journalists are persecuted there and actually it is all done by very different means. I would say that in the beginning meaning of occupation where it's just started. It was in March fourteen at least when we were there for like a few times with our admissions. It was quite easy to make a photos of so called little green men. They allowed out to videotape them to make pictures. I think that was the part of this hybrid technology of Russian Federation. They wanted world to know that they are there but they were not wearing any Sania like so such hybrid presence but after that of course course we have witnessed like the policy of squeezing off all the independent journalists from Crimea with a different like instruments threatening And like bonding Ukrainian media specifically adding journalists to the list of extremists for instance it's another Thing and we ended up actually with few people brave enough to travel to Crimea from time to time and report from Crimea. But even now just few days ago one of this this kind of journalists his name's Brahim of he was banned from entering Crimea. So Crimea is part of Ukraine into this legally eighty but Ukrainian citizen cannot enter Crimea now because he's bond for posing a threat to national security Russian Federation for like dozens of here's he's not able to enter Crimea to until two fifty four so we can assume that Russia is sure that they will keep control for all these years and I hope they will not of course but it's one one of the emblematic cases and another case which I would like to mention. Also he's a case of McCulloch seminar so has already referred Berta this case it's emblematic because he was a mccalla was persecuted for essentially saying that. Crimea is Ukraine Ukraine and under the Russian law. Currently it's a criminal offense so it's a separatism so therefore if you ever say eh just describe it as just the offensive separatism any public Manifestation of this like the facebook like in media or or like in other statements. And if you come to cremate may lead to imprisonment. And that's one of the reasons. Why lots of the journalists of Ukraine cannot out also go to Crimea because they may might be persecuted for or just just just for that and also I would like to mention also the support? The statement about the Crimean Tatar speed IMPR- imprisoned currently at least seventy one crimean tatars are imprisoned in Crimea Crimea and Russia for political motives and thirty two of them are related to Crimean Solidarity Group at. It is important to mention this because it's I think it's underestimated appearance of nonviolence resistance distance in the current in the modern world and current world. And it's just impressive. How they organize themselves? Because they're documenting the human rights violations which are made by the occupying powers. They come to the court hearings in the political cases. Both those related to Crimean Tatars but also to Ukrainian activists so they're not like linked on the to their own community so and I think it's a very important example of how people do fight the current like modern tyrannies just with nonviolence just by means of basically rule of law because they document and they speak up. That's two things about what they do and Russia getting. I think extremely mad because of that. And that's why the previous year they imprisons like the activists of chromium solidarity and that's that's that's what we have to ask you one. Can I ask just a few words. About an interest. In tendency NC in Crimea there are now journalists and even writer school where welcoming actually Russian army and change of control in Crimea. Who Actually got disappointed? And for that punished. And one over there. Mis- Mister Gaborone Ski Journalists From who was very pro Russian urine annexation accession of Crimea. And now he was deported from Crimea into Ukraine and he is a Russian citizen she was canceled and so he now has to live in the country. He betrayed the other cases. less-known there is a Russian language or ethnic Russian a Writer living in Sevastopol plot on besieging who didn't accept in the beginning dedication then sort of agreed to it and became more Russian than and the Russians are and started actually fighting for the social justice in Sevastopol as the result here is lost. His job and actually studied post in almost suicidal posts. Here has nothing to leave on and nobody wants to publish him anymore. Etcetera so I mean the disillusion usually come in there too the lectures at least. Yeah so all I want to come back to you and then I'm GonNa turn it to the audience to please start to think about your questions. What is your outlook having having sacrificed a great deal on behalf of your country and this struggle? What is your outlook now? Do you believe the approach of the current Ukrainian government and the international community is what it should be and are you you optimistic. I didn't really understand the question question. I want to know how you pass the current Ukrainian administration and the approach. Obviously the the they were successful in securing the release lease of significant number of prisoners. They have worked to build and fortify international ties. But do you think this approach Asia will be effective in the long-term to preserve the country that you have sacrificed for. Do you see a path to. Oh Crimea being reunited to us to our government politics. I'm very happy. Happy that presence Alinsky. He took so much effort and was able to release me and other political prisoners. The swap took like place a hundred of guys where return back home. And I'm very grateful for this and as to his political success as you know and now here. Trump impeachment is also also related with the scandal and Ukraine so oldest medal. I don't think it's it's strengthened. Our political position of our country Kalinski. His young we are almost the same age with him is rather ambitious and and I think I think that his efforts are sincere. Lack of experience lack of lack of finding in this five years. The solution does not allow him to feel the situation to feel Ukraine. And Its it's situation. It's hard situation. Therefore he is trying to make some kind of negotiations with Russian and he doesn't realize certain dozen one to have any peace that Ukraine and put in. Not One of those people that you can have any discussion negotiations with or agreement But we will see at the moment. It's hard to make any conclusions because only six months have passed and it's not enough and he is on highest post of the country country and I you know it's hard to say it's a success or a success. We will see at the moment. I'm not able to say anything. Okay thank you want to open it up to the audience. If you can just your hand gesture to you please. Their Mike's coming around Elmira directly with Bard College You mentioned the Crimean Tatars. I'd love to know a little bit more. About what is is the situation for them in the Crimea. Now and Oleg if you can talk a little bit about the ability for Crimean Tatar artists and writers. What what is there situation? Okay I will I will start out. I think that we we might say and actually. It's not the assumption is something which is reflected in lots of the resolutions including Mike U. N. J. Resolution Sandler other international documents. The fact that Crimean Tatars are prosecuted specifically as an ethnic group by the occupying power and it goes goes probably from historical background. When Crimean Tatars? Were deported by Joseph Stalin. Back in the previous century train during the Soviet Union. Existence and of Crimean Tatars. Were were for all the time. Perceived perceived as has being non loyal towards Moscow and towards the imperial authorities. And actually. It's very dramatic because these people Ah Put lots of force in order to come back to Crimea back in one thousand nine hundred eighty s and in the beginning of nine hundred ninety s and now they are kind of facing as they say. Hybrid differ tation. It means that when they say they they mean that they are being Swiss squeezed off from Crimea. But they don't want to leave you know it's there persecuted. It's some of them. Were killed like Rashad amount of. It's actually the first victim I would say. Or for patient of Crimea. Crimean Tatar activists who went to A peaceful rally by himself when Russia appeared there and he was kidnapped killed and after his body was excellently absolutely found by accident so and since very beginning they were like no loyal towards the Occupational National Power and therefore they're prosecuted as this kind of people who Russia can not rely on. Obviously Ashley but I would say that there are like more aspects in that because the persecution of Crimean tatars stars also lies within the trance which are typical for the whole Russian. For the ration- I mean the prosecution solution of the religious minorities so we know that. Croatia persecute Jehovah witnesses and it's true for Russia and for the occupied Crimea. Amelia also Russia persecute some of the US slim communities and true for Russia and occupied Crimea. But in some of the cases of Crimean Tatars like boss these trends are simultaneously there with them. See them they're working simultaneously. So yes but I think that It's very remarkable. The fact that first of all Crimean Tatars are ready to resist by peaceful means over there persecuted for that and second thing that they don't want to flee eh from Crimea and they're very tough on that I will rather die because it's my land and they will not be able to squeeze me all from this land again never so but I think that can tell oh more. Because he'll use you want to add something because I was isolated for five years years and only have been released for four months so I was absorbing all of the information right now after I was detained but Maria was right right about everything and it's hard to add something for me as a person was detained literature and Writers Maybe just very briefly because I do WanNa make sure we get to some other than very briefly for the second year we have now in the Crimean Tatar literature festival and competition and the center. For cultural of Crimean Tatars was also opened in give and this year actually we had sixteen. Participants Crimean tatars writers and poets. Who came from a next Crimea? Too Key for the festival before that Uh We didn't have enough actually connection between KIEF and Crimean Tatar literature which was a think. Mistake let lasted almost twenty years. Actually cremated rightous where not known. Keefer were very seldom published in Ukrainian translation. That's very significant. They're able to travel freely. Can come to give courage ing question over here. Thanks John Chamberlin Observatory retargeting. Thank you very much. I'm wondering what your thoughts are as a group on the most effective way to rein in Putin it seems like There's a fight going on obviously. And there's there's kinetic war and Ukrainians are doing their best but they're massively outnumbered and I'm wondering what you think about about the Magnitsky Act You know in in post Soviet states including Russia itself there are these allegations and it seems like the one thing that's been able to Have the have a noticeable impact. Something Putin has had to respond to that. It's hard is the Magnitsky Act and so I just love your opinions on it thank you. Are you familiar familiar with it. Yes go ahead. Who once again? Thank you for this question. When it comes to Responding to Russia I think according to my experience of dealing with this human rights issues I think two instruments are important first. One is our sanctions and both sanctions which relate eight to so-called sectoral sanctions or more like economic sanctions but also targeted sanctions. And that's what all Magnitsky Magnitsky Act is about and we're advocating for like two years for imposing this kind of sanctions regime dream by you and with support for instance bill browder in bed. Because he's of course he's a four star tremendous but so far we can see that there is not enough probably political wheel for this kind of decisions. Maybe at least Britain will do that after they Finally Finish this story will practice it. But I'm not sure. Of course I would prefer that Burson stays send whole EU. Has This magnitsky act but actually we had like meetings just few months ago in in in September in Brussels and we were discussing. Whether it's possible to impose this kind of Magnitsky Act at the level of you and to be honest honest I can't see that there's enough of political wheel and I think that here's the place where there's important role of us us in maintaining this transatlantic unity of us in the U.. When it comes to the opposing rush for the ration- and sanctions regime as well because so far? US have been much. More effective has been much more effective in imposing the sanctions. Then you end. Sometimes than even Ukraine moved the honest so I think that the first thing and and another thing very briefly is but here the role of Ukraine is very important is documenting all the crimes of Russian Federation. They are getting again very nervous when something particular. Some particular facts and documents are presented at the level of European for Human Rights International Criminal Court International Court for Justice or all this UN bodies and consular Europe and we have been witnessing previous here. How Russia was returning to the parliamentary? Awesome of Council of Europe and it was a shave for Europe for our content. And now they're they're. There will be another parliamentary assembly session and we know Oh that's Russia's preparing some surprises for this session of course so I would say that these are very important and with thing that I think think that the role of us is very important here as well and we were just discussing this morning that sometimes Ukraine this perceived as a buffer zone nowhere north breath where European nation political nation and we would like to pursue in this way and we are fighting for that and obviously we you want to be a part of European family of European nations but not the buffers zone to you know to just to be like a buffer between Russia and and the civilized far of the world. One thing that is encouraging surveyor moment. And where in Washington Democrats Republicans can agree on virtually nothing. They both our support of magnets gap. So I think that you know that's at least allow like our hope plays. Thanks Aline. Get some journalist. I just wonder if you could tell us a little bit more about specific meteorology relations that you've seen you know you mentioned that. It's an offense to describe premiers part of Ukraine What what other kinds of specific regulations have you seen or is it just a case of lows being so broadly interpreted that practically anything could be described as as has an offense in Ryan site Russia? you you can actually arrested for not only for posting something on facebook about who is The owner of Crimea. But for like you know for sharing and they were more than six hundred cases in the last years generally mentioned in anywhere that Crimea is. Russia is Ukraine is Offense according to the Criminal Code of Russia because they consider it a An ex to me so as an extra museum so any opposite opinion from the official line of the policy of Kremlin He's a extremism specifics. You want I can just line at that. These amendments which relate to separatism and to Crimea. I mean it was specifically adopted after the annexation of Crimea documentation ocupation or Crimea in order to prevent any like information in the public space. which would contract this main idea? The era of Russian government. But I would say that in Russian context. It's not so important what the law is and because we have rule of law and were have ruled bylaws. So it's like ruled by law. Anything can be adopted and just just to instrumentalise it against some particular like people or groups or even already existing laws are enough off to make people silent just when you look at how Russian human rights organizations are persecuted persecuted for Instance Memorial human rights group. which is probably the most respected one there all the time in the court and they got like millions and millions of fines for being a foreign edges? So that's a good example. How is instrumentalist? And now even even after the recent changes this constitutional coup as it was defined by some of the experts in Russia. We may end up with. It's like car to predict and of course it will be reflected Crimea. We should remember that anything will which is going in. Russia will be reflected on the areas. Actually the law on foreign agents in Russia was changed in such a way that any personality any I personally journalist once he S- paid for an article published abroad becomes a foreign agent and should declare that he's a foreign agent. Don't stay Schlesinger Sensory Foundation first of all does the United Nations have any role in settling the whole issue of Crimea. Have they taken a particularly strong position on it. And second of all is the possibility of Ukraine joining NATO. Good or bad in terms of what's going on right now. Well I I will start with NATO I. I think that's actually. The West is the only way for Ukraine to retain its independence. Either membership in NATO or more close more deep integration with European a union but without actually help from the states and from a you Ukraine has not enough Ni- they comical no military nor political power to withstand. Actually this aggression. And I think the policy of Kremlin will continue. I mean it can be distracted now by the desire of Mr Putin region to integrate billers into Russian for duration to create new state and then to think about the corridor to Kaliningrad region region along the border between Lithuania and Poland but Ukraine will be always an agenda of Russian Federation until there is a new president new government. And they're they have desire actually to normalize Relationship with the West. So I mean NATO is very very important for Ukraine. The first question was about well. The United Nation officers are not allowed route into Crimea. Nobody's allowed into Crimea. I mean like Red Cross is sometimes allowed into occupied territories a two is controlled by the separatists but also not to Crimea. Crimea is blocked by Russian duration by a physician and alert wanted to. I just adds about you and so you end is adopting U. N. J. adopting acting every year a resolution on Crimea. And I think it's very important because it helps to keep the Crimean issue on the agenda if if we look at the world kind of globally and how many atrocities are taking place in all over the place we can understand that Ukraine is more or less lucky being gene on the agenda all the time and the fact that for instance elects name was mentioned in one of the resolutions which was almost like exclusively I think that played the role as well and I should say that. Of course in recent years there was lots of skepticism from the side of Ukrainian society weighted towards all the sorts of international intergovernmental organizations like always C. U. N. etc.. But I think that without this organizations it could be even worse so that's the something which prevents us from even worse scenarios and. I think that we may be skeptical. Sokoto about I mean we have lots of issues and lots of talks about inefficiency about the that you end should be reformed. UN Security Security Council needs to be reformed but at least it is something which keeps us In our previous like this were post World War Two order probably actually effected annexation is not recognized by the United Nations and by the civilized world. It means a lot and it irritates very much pushing because in Crimea. You cannot use credit cards with visa or MasterCard Astakhov you can not use roaming the loss of things which are not available there because of the sanctions because this territory is considered according to the international rules next occupied because that sort of has that held firm over these four years or is it getting to know so far it it was working working it was working and also the new Russian citizens sort of the passports passport holders of Russian Federation from Crimea. They cannot get visas from Schengen states from European states. So they either have to reapply organize themselves. Passports issued not in Crimea but somewhere in central Russia then they can try but most of the people cannot travel because of this thing over era. Thanks fascinating picture of a kind of a baffling scenario. Reo from our perspective in the United States and quite a scary one as well Bhakti Merchandise Johnny. FCAT which is a think tank I'm very interested in the prisoner swaps. It sounds sounds like the the first one. Since the start of the conflict was in September one leg was released then there was another one toward the end of twenty nineteen and then talks of a third. I'd love to kind here. The status of those talks also learned from the Russian side who's being released from the Russian side. Oh well you mean the swap that took place in September seven. It was the last swap at at the end of December. Just this these swaps. If there's anything you can say about the motivations Who the Russian prisoners owners are that are being held and and exchanged as part of these swamps whether you're optimistic about there being in further swaps? Well it's a complicated question because because it's complicated the swap on September seven th that when I was swamped and other thirty five political prisoners four thirty five Russian prisoners from our side there were eleven political prisons and creamier Tatar among them. He was very sick and also he was just he couldn't remain in prison that's why he was just released swapped and thirty of different ones. The question is complicated. And it's quite complex. Because the sailor men were supposed to be released. According to international tribunal I think landscape was not strong enough and he didn't have the will to just receive political dividends in order and he he didn't include Salem rand he we. We still have a lot of people in prisons there and we were supposed. It would be nice to release the salesman through the tribunal. If Russia followed this we could be able to apply to international care courts and Russian airports it would be an escalation but he did not what decide to do it. It's always a complicated question. Tama was released from the side of Ukraine. He is the separatist who fought with separates on boss and who allegedly knew something about a shot plane nine buoying and he was abducted from the Donbas territory by our by our special forces sources Ukrainian special forces and they Lewis lost a fighter. He just he was acceptable exposure bomb and died. He was abducted doctored. He was questioned by the Ukrainian and international investigators but he did not know anything. He wasn't a precious witness and if he had known something Russia would have killed him long ago. Nevertheless Russia decided to do the swap and Russia gave took him in and we agreed to this so that I would be swapped and others as to the second swap which took place at the end tall December seventy six people were returned into crane from the occupied territory from all those territories Ukraine released also Ukraine approximately one hundred hundred people to Russia. One of them are mainly separatists that fought against Ukraine including five former birket. It's as division of police and these five people were involved in killing people that protested tacit and my son in February two thousand fourteen. So these five people accused there were involved in forty indict indict in death of forty eight people. There's a lot of testimony is there was a lot of evidence of videos and data. There was a whole base. They would have been charged but Russia demanded to receive them and Russia gave for them three of our special she'll forces who were prisoners of war for three years so there was a choice either to charge. Those people burkard people bull involved in the deaths of Ukrainian or to receive our people and a lot of people were not satisfied with this because shooting mass shooting of the people protesting think of my maiden is crucial in Ukraine. And in the end what we are left with nothing with those with those defendants but Russia is fusing so to say politics and principles that were spoken Brazilian skin his program that he is releasing right. Now he is trying to receive a are people from Dunbar's and put an playing on this and he is trying to make profit from the situation and to peace European Union and not to release the people not to release and don't boss to Ukraine in. But he's just playing to maintain that territory and sometimes our government doesn't really understand that it's being used by him. I think we have time for one more question. I'll squeeze into if I can characterize Gary from aboard advises Pollard. Have you given any consideration to writing a personal account to highlight unpublicized in a much more personal way. What's what's going on in Ukraine and Crimea? Love never had such ideas to describe all of this. You know I separate my artwork and my activism. I'm talking about this on all of those panels that I'm inviting about the media about the problems and it's unrelated with my art but being in prison I wrote a number of screenplays and number of books including stories stories set of stories about prison and there is some experience reflected there that I received there and it's also about other people and also I will release a journal of hunger straight. Could the one that I wrote about during one hundred and forty five days I rotate lot about prison in that journal and they well some wouldn't like that journal. My writing is very difficult. So you know I was was hiding it as I was writing it so they did not see it in prison as I was writing it. And so there's a lot of information about prison and hunger-strike about Crimea. Ah At the moment. I do not have any urge to write about Crimea. Maybe I'll will have later to write something about Crimea in future Karen in the front. Tim Fry Columbia University. Are you making films films. And how has your experience in prison influenced how you view filmmaking. No you you mention I just want to maximum gonna go that the diary of the hunger strike because that's something that is going to be published will oh as they said that it will be published this fall and it will be pleasant published is just. I gave all of the details to my assistant and he has to decode some of my handwriting. Because it's very illegible. So I voted illegibly absolutely because it would have been taken away from me so as it's decoded I will not make any changes any AD. It's I'll just haven't published as it is so maybe it will not be very attractive because the person who was on the edge of being die of dying his very open so I was just describing my own south. It would help me to hold on to hold on. I was writing something down. It was just help to you. Keep going and it kept me alive. Of course it will be published and it has caused a lot of interest. It's just a document L. commitment of all the events maybe it will be interesting but now the interest is very big related with this yeah. I'm sure I'm sure that it is I mean just to to close. Maybe just one last thing. If you want to comment on it you you mentioned cadet you see sort of what happened to you and your experiences as kind of separate from your art and is there anything you WanNa say about what your art might involve going forward or what interests you are what directions you may want to pursue whether it's in writing or any other form well for me in art cinema. It is the most important. It's the number one. That's why I wrote five screenplays and Try and we'll be making five movies. I am doing the preparations. That's right now. If everything is fine we will start shooting soon. Another movie that was written based on my play it was shoot while while I was in present and I was trying to direct it from afar. You know it was a joint you work with. The person who was is on the field and I was directing from afar. So it's over. So I was told that the premier will take place in Berlin festival bowl. And it's a very good level. It's very good. Start for the movie will see. Also there are also other writings which I do on the site and at the moment Three books have been published. Another book is being ready to be published in Spring and the other one journal. I bought my hunger strike and also other ones will be published in the near future as well. Well one of the things we say. At Penn America is that we want imperilled writers to be known not just for their arrest or undergoing torture or being gene imprisoned but for their work. So it's exciting to hear about all the work that you have that it's going to be brought forward to the world and I hope everybody everybody in this room gets a chance to enjoy it. Thank you so much. Thank you for more event. Audio subscribe on Itunes or visit us at C._F.. Are Dot Org.

Crimea Ukraine Crimea Crimea Russia Russian Federation president Crimea US Penn Ukraine Ukraine Writer Council on Foreign Relations Ukraine Ukraine Maria Tomac facebook NATO Mr Putin Crimean Tatar Komo United Nations
Ukraine Part 1: Race Against The Machine

Rough Translation

19:38 min | 11 months ago

Ukraine Part 1: Race Against The Machine

"This message comes from. NPR sponsor. Xfinity some things are slow like a snail races. Other things are fast like Xfinity X.. By get get fast speeds even when everyone is online working to make WIFI simple easy awesome more at xfinity dot com restrictions apply. Hey It's Gregory Warner and you're listening to rough translation from NPR for we start the show. We have a survey for you. It's our chance chance to hear from you. Why you listen what you're listening for what you want to hear? More of it only takes ten minutes fill out. We'd love it if you would. We'll have a link at the end of this episode and in the show notes and thanks president trump shares. A few things in common with the president of Ukraine Vladimir's Alinsky glut both are outsiders. Outsiders to politics both made their name by starring in a TV show Dolinsky starred in Ukrainian Sitcom called Servant of the people in the Sitcom he plays. This mild-mannered precariously employed high school. History teacher whose fortunes shift one day when he delivers a curse filled rant to another teacher. All about feeding politicians Titians. We did I mention that. What he doesn't know is that one of his own students is secretly filming him through the classroom window? The video goes online. The teachers nearly fired but in a twist the video so popular that teacher runs for President and wins which which is to one more connection between Celeski and the American President both made a campaign pledge to get rid of political elites to drain the swamp Utah tossed in Ukraine that pledge came memorably in the form of a trailer for season two sitcoms the schoolteacher turned president comes up with a big plan for Reform Forum Autumn Cutting. Yeah and then. He has a dream train where he presents his plan to parliament. Parliament laughs. Face Linski eyes blaze as with anger these people of Ukraine of nothing to eat does the mobile and some free to walk in the streets. This isn't Ha ah comedy. Comedy is fury it's bottled rage against the political elites that Zilenski in everyone is age had grown up with in parliament responds by pointing fingers. You you you're to blame. And then they physically brawl which is also not equate fiction in real life Ukrainians had gotten used to watching parliament. The way some people watch hockey to see who would who that day. So then it's Zelinski in the dream pulls out two machine. Guns aims them at parliament. What happens next? It's like a scene from a Tarantino film it. It's a stylized massacre but it's a massacre. This is rough translation from NPR. The show that takes far off places with stories that hit close to home. I have lived in Ukraine and I have reported reported in Ukraine government corruption. It's just something everyone there knows about. And he just say this but everybody expects Ukrainians regularly rank themselves the most corrupt country in Europe and then this year they elected that comedian with the smoking semiautomatics in his hands. That's how badly they they wanted to put an end to it. which countries interests are served when the very corrupt behavior we have been criticising is allowed to prevail? This is former ambassador to Ukraine or Yvonna Vich testifying on the hill in the impeachment hearings going on in Washington right now. How could our system them feel like this? We're hearing a lot about corruption in Ukraine and how it's affected American politics. How is it that foreign corrupt interests could manipulate our government but all this comes at a time when Ukrainians are right in the middle of what is a very unorthodox experiment to try to fight corruption? Starting with the election of Presidents Alinsky. And the thing I kept I kept wondering about is. How is that fight coming along so I went to Kiev and I met a guy who might be the perfect person to watch that fight with? So if it's okay if I start your story with cancer. Oh his name is Dmitri tro cooler and everyone causing meat is totally. Am Talk about it. Freely was fun. Michio uses to English English words a lot. One is the word fun which usually means some version of. I can't believe this is happening to me. The other words strange which is is often something that should never have been allowed to happen but was last December. It was thirty six years old. Leo Woke Up to find that one one leg was twice the size of the other in the lab. report the calls it. His Christmas present said he had cancer. Frankly speaking I wasn't happy. That's his wife. Masha laughing in the background. Go Soon Ukraine cancerous steal something badly would not have this idea of cancer survivors meet. You found himself a patient at the National Cancer Institute in Kiev but he noticed something. Something strange you just go to hospital and device my button for nurse. There was no call button by the bedside. If a patient needed a nurse you just have to scream and hope someone heard. It's very simple but there are not there. Were actually a lot more problems with this hospital than just the call. Buttons widespread corruption but media is nothing if not practical tactical. He spent most of his career in advertising and he knows what will get people's attention so Michio Road facebook post from the hospital explaining about this problem and he even found a manufacturer who could outfit the whole hospital with call. Buttons for five hundred dollars said that if you want to give some money for this buttons since formation listed off of cancer you can send it here. I thought that I want like five hundred dollars. And people gave me like twelve thousands percents. It was enough not only to buy new call buttons but a new bone saw and new flooring because people have to understand the belief that they they come to the hospital to longer not to die during the months meter was getting his cancer treatment. The TV's in the hospital were all tuned to the election election of Vladimir's alinsky grains who stood in front of parliament and pulled out. Not a machine gun but a quote from Ronald Reagan. Yeah problem the government does not solve our problems. The government is our problem parliament applauds but then he announces this is. He's got them in his sights. He is dissolving parliament and holding snap parliamentary elections. His party will run their own candidates and suddenly Zilenski team was tapping all kinds of unlikely non-politicians to run like his fellow actors and entertainers civil advocates and schoolteachers and an ad man who at that moment was in his hospital bed on my colleagues Went to the hospital and said let's go to parliament on chemotherapy drip. I said I cannot right now. It's it's repeating. Do you know the movie. Mr Smith Goes to Washington. No media is an idealistic a guy. Even his parents warned him because they was like what parliament and meet. You could not blame them. I have seen what's parliament sir. Do with people he'd worked with parliaments in the past and noticed pattern didn't matter who you elected timeframe the most active burrowed is like half of the year six months that's how long he felt. It took for critical mass of lawmakers to be on the take for the disease of corruption. Take hold and the normal functions of governing to cease and after these sold previously bringing parliament's the drop down to to the hell of corruption. Think about that first. Second calculates it parliament. Sworn in August might be useless by Christmas so he had to think really hard with those odds. Was it worth running for parliament at all. Rough translation continues just after this break. This message comes from. NPR sponsor. Xfinity some things are slow like snail L. races other things are fast like Xfinity X. Y.. You get fast speeds even when everyone is online xfinity has the goal of maintaining aiming coverage all over your house with reliable service for all devices so everyone is happy. You can pause the in Home Wifi to bring the family together working to make wildfire simple easy awesome more at expanding dot com restrictions apply. Hey there it's hammer keith. And on the NPR politics podcast. Cast we bring you into the conversation with. NPR's best political reporters as we talk about the biggest news coming out of Washington and from the campaign trail new new episodes drop every weekday afternoon. To understand. Meech is thinking about running for parliament. Parliament he and his wife wants taking on a tour of the city where they live the city of Kiev Cooper. POB Meet his wife. Marcia Salty Cova starts the tour in the famous Independence Square. She points up to a beautiful nineteenth century building graceful details about seven stories high and perched right on the shoulder of that lovely building. My God. It's so ugly very ugly. Can you imagine that it's what we're looking at is cinder blocks and and mortar. Someone was apparently trying to build a private apartment on top of this historic. Landmark doesn't fit. It's rude it's violence against which means about the violence in New York. ORC where I live people freak out about any new construction but this was on a totally different level meet. You says no one could even find out. Who is building this? Private pent on the Historic old building is strange strange. As in normal for life in Ukraine a park might be demolished without any warning a hotel hell will go up in someone's backyard no neighbors or asked me his own neighbor. Got So fed up with city workers trying to cut down this beautiful avocado tree and their courtyard that he started guarding the tree with a gun Norway. Down the sense of what's going on the last line of every story. Yeah that's true because people right Petitions people write requests trying to understand what's going on. That's fun sometimes. Sometimes gets criticized by his friends for fighting so hard about these things. Ukraine has bigger problems they tell him widespread poverty and a war with Russia. You see how but for me to this. Uncertainty that Ukrainians are forced to live with can change it. Maybe he thought as a parliamentarian he could do something about that then that we can build the city dream and we have this chance. If this sounds like a stump speech it was it was me to speech on the campaign trail. We don't have of power would only have a city. It's not ours. He went around the city talking about this stuff. We just have to get back. It's very easy. But unlike urban activists and other countries he couldn't exactly campaign about illegal development because the laws and Ukraine pretty vague on what is legal. And what's what's not and this is corruption corruption. It's always when you're credit can make decision is inside. The problem was not that some city official took a bribe bribe to bend the law and build a penthouse. The law was flimsy to begin with and Wen In the law you have this Alexa frustrations or no. Yeah no spots hidden spots or something Laos and there is always corruption rounded. I heard this again and again. Ukraine corruption is not just just about the people. It's about the laws. There's an expression that people say. The law is an ox cart. It goes where you lead it which also by the way makes for kind of mistranslation. When when he talked Ukrainians about that famous phone call the one where trump asks Alinsky to do him a favor and investigate the case of Hunter Biden and the energy company where he served on the board the way a lot of Ukrainian said that energy company might have broken lots of laws may have broken no laws the way the laws are written both can be true? It's one reason that one of the most powerful offices in Ukraine is the one that's in charge of prosecuting corruption. For a certain bribe they could open opened the case for a certain bribe. They could close the case. I met Dario Kelly nuke in Kiev. She runs the anti-corruption Action Center. They could seize accounts of certain businesses and extort bribes in exchange Darya. I should say watch the elections Lansky with mixed feelings. She'd seen that machine gun scene in Sitcom and she. You could not fight corruption Ukraine just by cleaning house. They have to shoot with was bullets from the Criminal Code. It was hard to have decent lawmakers. If you didn't have the rule of law entering the Verhovna rather just the Ukrainian parliament Meteo won his bid for parliament. A lot of people around on the president's ticket one they had unprecedented majority and the most number of first timers to parliament. So so I went there one afternoon walking up the steps of the marble steps and ran into a reporter for an English language paper. You Italian who kindly agreed to show me around to me or your full name. Batali decision is actually the Russian word for thousand thousand took battalion thousand. He's covered the previous parliament in this one. He tells me this parliament big difference. I think that US members of parliament are more open a younger more approachable. Batali will meet a parliamentarian on the street or the metro which never happened before and another thing these lawmakers. There's actually show up because a lot of members of parliament in the last parliament Z.. Go for a walk. They didn't show up to work. They us over to one of the laws. The parliament passed was a fine for not showing up. You can be docked a month's pay if you miss enough votes. They also passed the law that parliamentarians and other other officials have to declare their income in their spending. It's the way to see if people are on the take and a law that the president can be impeached. In fact another thing that parliament parliament did is speed up the process for passing new laws. That is the sound of a vote happening as battalion. I are watching. You really gotta get it fast. Past like Moses three hundred. There's a big screen in front of parliament. The vote tally is shown. And so who won unanimous unanimous votes are pretty common these days as someone dubbed this parliament. The mad printer parliament. For how many laws there amending writing so quickly one thing that meet has discovered though is that writing his dream. Bill is not a rush job. His Law it's called law of the Capitol will affect three million residents in Kiev billions of dollars in investment. He says so. He's been in holding these long public meetings to get feedback. He's received hundreds of amendments in fact he spent so much time. Rewriting this new law that he's missed too many days in parliament element and he lost his main salary which taught him this. The one law you can't change is love. Unintended consequences were wounded foster. Oh ooh oh by attention it's normal CETACEAN for this parliament. Punishing people for not voting on laws apparently prevented people from finding the time to write the laws to begin with but surprisingly meet you does not make a big deal of this. The more I talked to him the more I realized how differently a he and I were seeing what his job was. I was seeing the stories of fight against corruption. He was seeing it as a race. It's a little bit frightening. Frightening the speed. You know I understand. It's when you go in with a car on the very high speed. It's just frightening because it's Sir Fuss. He tells me there's a game that his new colleagues have already started playing on their downtime swapping stories of the latest offers. He he tells me about one colleague who was offered a monthly bribed by local business leader. Just to stand up each month in parliament and bad mouth arrival was like not thousands per month. US dollars yes. More money than most parliamentarians make in a year when he refused the offer rose higher tied on fire and then the lost seventy another colleague of meat. You told this story. Businessmen offered offered him a position as a university lecturer but he would be the turn this university and students no students now It's what the proposal they share those stories with you my colleagues ago. Yes yeah. Of course everybody's sharing you. The is Somebody greet did. They agree to the proposal in other words. How much much time does Ukraine have left? Stay tuned for the next episode in Our Ukraine series. Where we dig into the serious uses of Ukrainian comedy that's in two weeks? Today's show was produced by autumn Barnes with help from Mitchell Johnson and Jess Jiang. Julia Barton edited the episode. Thanks to Ukrainian journalist Alex Clement off as well as Jacob Goldstein Jenny. LAWTON INSANA Krassikov Chango the rough translation high council is Neil. Caruth Chris Turpin and on your grandmother and again we have a survey for you takes takes ten minutes to fill out the link to that survey is NPR dot org slash rough translation survey. Mastering by Isaac Rodriguez John on Ellis composed music for our show. Mike Cruz help score. The episode and Aaron Register is our project manager. If you'd like more stories like this in your podcast feed give us a rating review on Apple. PODCASTS of people find the show and of course we love to hear from you reach us on email at rough translation. NPR DOT ORG or on twitter at roughly. I'm Gregory Warner back in two weeks with our two of Our Ukraine series on rough translation.

Parliament Ukraine NPR president Kiev Ukrainian parliament Meteo Washington Alinsky government Gregory Warner US Our Ukraine President cancer Europe Dolinsky National Cancer Institute in K Ronald Reagan
Float On: US-Ukraine Relations, Google Cache, Swimming Cows

Skimm This

12:21 min | 11 months ago

Float On: US-Ukraine Relations, Google Cache, Swimming Cows

"It's Thursday November fourteenth. Welcome to skim this or breaking down the most complex stories of the day and giving you the context kind of white matter Ukraine Rain Ukraine Ukraine's. It's all the rage these days at the impeachment inquiry on Capitol Hill. We'll explain why the diplomats your hand from lately are so concerned about the. US's west is relationship with Ukraine. Then why do go is hoping you'll fill up your google cache off with cash money and finally apparently wild cows are better swimmers than we are. We're here to make your evening smarter. Let's skim this. Today's episode is brought to you. Buy Quip unless you're months. Long media cleanse ended. Today you probably know that. The impeachment inquiry hearings into the president have gone public. They begin yesterday and pick up again tomorrow and continue all next week. It's basically Ukraine all day every day everyone testifying is an official or diplomat. Who in one way or another is connected to US policy on Ukraine? So today we're going to take a step back and look at why Ukraine has been so so important to the US and how the impeachment inquiry is showing how that long-term relationship is being put to the test. I it's important to understand that the. US and Ukraine go way back during the Cold War. Ukraine was behind the Iron Curtain. That was a term used to describe the boundary three of Communism in Europe on one side of the curtain was Western. Europe on the other side was the Soviet Union now Russia and places under its influence like eastern Germany Hungary Poland and Ukraine after the fall of the Soviet Union the US stepped up to help. Ukraine develop a free market economy and and build its democracy from the ground up that included helping fight corruption in Ukraine and normalizing trade relations to give Ukraine's economy a boost in Ukraine. Crane took steps to help the US out to in the nineties. Ukraine give up its nuclear weapons stockpile which had been built during the Soviet era to attack the US. Let's talk about symbolic then in two thousand three Ukraine even deployed troops to support the war in Iraq and for a few years had the fourth most troops of any country in that war that definitely one them so. US Brownie points in late. Twenty thirteen Ukraine was even toxic joined the European Union Union and take a step even further from Russia but then Ukraine's pro. Russia president made a controversial decision to call off talks with the EU flaw. Aw Thousands of people flooded the streets in protest and the global media was captivated that became known as the euro. My Don Revolution Lucien. It was a pretty black and white example of Ukraine being pulled in two directions between its historic ties to Russia and a possible future closer closer to Europe the US landed really strongly in favor of Ukraine moving towards Europe Republican US Senator John McCain McCain even showed up at the protest to make that point extra clear here he was invited shot by the Guardian free world is with you. America is with with you. I am with you. Should lies in Europe after months of protest. Ask Ukraine's pro. Russian president fled the country. But that was hardly the ended the drama because Russia was about to get involved in Ukraine and a whole new way in early. Two thousand fourteen. Russian troops quietly deployed to Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula. Which is on the Black Sea and in a matter of days Russia pulled off what some say is the most successful invasion of territory in modern times by mid-march Russia declared the territory to be? Its own a lot of countries condemned that as a legal but Russia's kind of had the last laugh here since it still controls in the next month russian-backed troops started hearted seizing government buildings in territory in eastern Ukraine before a full on war between these troops in the Ukrainian army broke out Russia's invasion of Ukraine cuss people to start wondering what Russian President Vladimir Putin might do next and who else might be at risk to push back against Russia the US and its partners in Europe did a few things first. They poured billions of dollars of economic insecurity aid into Ukraine. Second Washington put sanctions on Russia to try to hurt its economy and send a message in Twenty fifteen president. Obama went to the UN to to spell out what that message was. We cannot stand by one. The sovereignty and territorial integrity of a nation is flagrantly violated. That happens without consequence in Ukraine. mm-hmm it could happen to any nation gathering here today but in terms of actually helping Ukraine fight back against Russia. President Obama had a more mixed record occurred even though Congress gave you permission to sell lethal weapons to Ukraine in twenty fourteen. That didn't happen and Obama was criticized for not sending Ukraine Equipment Whitman. It could use on the front lines which brings us to some of the Ukraine related drama. We're learning about during the impeachment inquiry. When president trump came into office? They promised to change things and do it. President Obama didn't in late twenty seventeen his administration gave the thumbs up for the US to sell Ukraine key. Battlefield weapons events like a lot of past. US policy's crane this move got. BIPARTISAN SUPPORT The Washington. Post editorial board called the decision a good example. President Ronald Reagan's peace through strength mentality from the Cold War. So that made it all the more surprising would nearly four hundred million dollars in. US military aid to Ukraine. Suddenly put on hold this year. This is one of the things that the impeachment inquiry has been all about according to some officials and diplomats who testified so far they believed the reason was because president trump wanted Ukraine to launch an investigation into Joe Biden's son and others and that Ukraine wouldn't get the aid until that happened and the official explanation from the White House. Different trump has defended calling for these investigations. Because he says we're just trying to fight corruption plain and simple and he's right in the fact that the US has been helping Ukraine fight corruption for years but if the US is new policy was conditioning military support on fighting corruption. That was apparently the news to some of our top diplomats including the US Acting Ambassador to Ukraine who testified yesterday other. Ukraine experts are equally worried about the administration's nations sudden shift in rhetoric behind closed doors and now publicly Nina. Janko Ed's is a fellow at the Wilson Center an expert on democracy in Eastern Europe for a long time. Ukraine has enjoyed bipartisan support on Capitol Hill from the hearings yesterday. I wonder if that is still the taste. Because we're seeing Ukraine be painted as this absolutely hopelessly corrupt nation. When in reality the United States has been the main partner for the past thirty years? In order to bring Ukraine's democratic reforms to fruition and without the US's support on that front it may be harder for Ukraine to to achieve the democratic reforms. It's been hoping for and which many people think are in the US's best interests so what's the scam. The the impeachment inquiry into president trump is putting Ukraine into the headlines. Big Time in the history here matters the. US has been a top supporter of Ukraine since its independence pendants in the ninety. S and bipartisan support for Ukraine became even more visible after Russia invaded Ukraine and twenty fourteen. That war is far from over. which helps ops explain? Why jonquet says the trump administration's decision to put military aid for Ukraine on hold came as such surprise? Thirteen thousand people have died because because they want a right to self-determination territorial integrity sovereignty and the right to live their lives than dignity and have their voices be hurt by neither government. I can't think of anything more American than that. One person who may be able to shed more light on the shifting dynamics in the US Ukraine relationship is Marie Ivanovich. She's the former. US Ambassador to Ukraine who was reportedly called back from her post earlier this year by the trump administration for political reasons. And she's she's the next witness being called to testify at the impeachment inquiry. You can catch on C. Span Tomorrow Morning Brighton. Early at nine. Am Eastern TGIF AGI APP. Coming up why Google wants to get even more involved in all aspects of your life. That's next it we could all use. How with better dental habits that means brushing for two minutes twice a day and floss regularly no matter what brand new US enter quip? Quip makes good habits simple starting with an electric toothbrush refillable floss and anti cavity toothpaste. And if you go to get quick dot com slash. Skim this right now. You'll get your first refill free. That's your first refill free at get QUIP DOT COM Slash Skim. This spelled G. T. Q. A. dot com slash skin. This quip the Good Habits Company I. It's Skim Money Thursday where we look at some of the big headlines of the week and explain how they could affect your wallet this week looking at Google's new partnership with banks to offer users a checking account. They're calling it. Google cache like your search cash but also like cash money uh before we go any further we WANNA point out that GV formerly Google ventures is a minority investor in the skin. A lot of big tech companies have been getting into the money game. Recently Apple has a credit card in facebook plans to launch a cryptocurrency. Here's how we'll go. Cash will work. It'll link. Google pay accounts. Two checking accounts managed by City Group. It's basically another way for Google to be omnipresent in your life. Your personal planner. Your preferred browser your go-to search engine. And now the place you stash your money. Meanwhile city would handle all the financial compliance stuff which could help keep government regulators. Happy Google already has a lot of our data and some people worried about how secure baking Info will actually be a company. Says it won't sell your financial info but it hasn't said it won't use it's inside look at your spending habits abbots to improve its AD targeting. And if you're worried about money the convenience of Google cache might make spending your money a bit too easy because money is still money even with the Google logo to learn more about how Google cache affects your wallet head on over to the scam dot com slash money uh-huh Before we go today we've got a fun fact for you from Cedar Island North Carolina. If you've ever visited the island you may have spotted a wild horse or a cow grazing the land but after Hurricane Dorian hidden September many of the wild horses on the island as well as the cows were believed to have drowned and died now local. Say some of these as wild cows have been found alive miles away at a national park in the outer banks officials say the cows swam there from Cedar Island during the hurricane and were laying low until someone spotted them. Now they're safe and sound three cheers for the cows and that's all for Skim this thanks again for listening and be sure to hit subscribe and rate and review us. Wherever you get your podcast? If you WANNA the skin to your morning routine you can sign up for a free newsletter. The daily scam right on our website at the skin dot com. It's everything you need to know to start your day right in your inbox.

Ukraine Rain Ukraine Ukraine US president Ukraine Equipment Whitman Acting Ambassador to Ukraine Google Russia Europe trump Obama President Ronald Reagan Google ventures official Soviet Union Washington Hurricane Dorian Black Sea
Village Witch :: Paul Pierquet (Ukraine)

Messengers

13:05 min | 4 months ago

Village Witch :: Paul Pierquet (Ukraine)

"Welcome to messengers her laugh. This is an international church. Keiv Ukraine's capital and largest city could have snow. Crystals was Chris. International Church means its main purpose is to connect with people in Ukraine who are from Ukraine missionary. Paul shares this message in English AS FOLLOWERS OF CHRIST. We build our lives upon an event that happened two thousand years ago. And it's translated menu. How do you greet somebody in Ukraine a formal greeting when you don't know somebody but if you know somebody there's a just a common yet when you go into a room all men will have to shake hands with every man in the room even if you don't say hi to him or say anything it's just a very common thing hand shakings very common from Oak Assembly of God this is messengers reports from missionaries? Who bring the message of hope around the world? I Missions Pastor Tom. Murray in this report Europe the country Ukraine the story of the village witch. There are probably people who've made a lasting impact in your life even though you're face to face time with them was very brief for missionary Paul. Pr Key ninety five year. Old Martha is one of those people. I've met Martha one time. When we were doing just a ministry up. There stopped at her fence She came out by her by the fans and greeted her and and she just yelled at me. What did she say? I didn't even understand? It was and Ukrainian agreed her and Russian. She yelled at me a little bit. Paul Describes Martha Small in stature wrinkled with age little or no eyesight left embittered alone and hardened anybody who would stop over. She had no problem just yelling at them. Calling out curses very much like a witch would and was considered in the village to be a witch a witch. Yeah within the culture. There's a common understanding of of witchcraft. I think every culture has it certain things you can do to call on bad things other people. This was something that everybody heard from her. On a regular basis Paul and Christine Cherokee moved their family from Milwaukee to Ukraine more than a decade ago from the International Church. They passed her and Keiv. They send teams to start churches outside the city. The park is connected with Martha and her story. Through one of those teams two of the individuals that we sent up there to plant. The church was Dennis and maxine both of them out of our church young men who have just grown in their faith. Martha has spent her whole life in in in this village at ninety five years old. She's had a hard life at ninety five years old. Having lived in Ukraine that means she lived through some very difficult things. She was a child in the Soviet era when Ukraine was under the control of Russian dictator Josef Stalin she recalls and tell stories of the fourth starvations of Stalin. Were an estimated seven and a half million people were killed in just just over two years. She remembers sitting in the fields with her older brother. Eating hate to survive. Martha lived through the World War. Two Nazi invasion of Ukraine Ukraine inflame the citizen villages a burning like Taunton lighting up grim horror of the country's right by your members Nazi Germany coming through her village hiding in the woods and and watching Her older brother being executed very few people being left in the village at that point so she seen her own brother killed. You can understand why she may have a heart heart. Yeah she was. She was bitter. She was angry. She had kind of developed a a barrier or a bubble around herself to where she didn't let many people in by the time we got to know Martha she had spent the last ten years blind was kind of being cared for by her neighbor Another another widow another older lady. Martha had outlived three husbands. Never had any children three husbands three husbands all up in that village there. And if you think of a village house in in Ukraine Martha's got large large concrete Fireplace she builds a fire in the base of it and sleeps on top of during the winter. Stay warm there. Her floors are dirt. No electricity but half villages are very simple like village. Houses are very simple like that but she'd become very angry kind of yelling everybody. Her neighbor passed away two years ago shortly after her neighbor passed this church kind of picked up the the responsibility of making sure. She's Ok even though she she really been treated very well. This is missionary Paul. Pr Key telling Martin Story. This woman nearly a century old in rural North Korean known as the village which sheep even yelled curses at the people helping. I think it's because of the bitterness that you talked about she would yell out spells or something like that against people. Yeah Yeah and so she. She had allowed to the young ladies from our church. Their source of hope to be able to come in. We brought food to her through. Those two young girls church paid for firewood for her to make sure she always had enough because people in the village would would steal her firewood. Imagine crawled most of the places that she went and so to go outside and not be enough firewood for cold days or for winter for cooking that that was a pretty scary probably for her. Maybe I missed it. Why did she have to crawl? She's blind and for her. It's it was a lot easier to sometimes make it outside into the area just just to be able to crawl and so are two young ladies. Were taking care of her and never really had much access to her other than that Bringing in firewood greeting her she was always Kind of keeping everybody away from her but something changed maxine one of our church. Planters decided that he was going to stop with the two girls and just to greet her Sunday before service. They meet about four o'clock in the afternoon in the village so he was stopping house to house. Greeting people inviting people for whatever reason That Sunday afternoon. Martha invited them in very traditional in Ukraine. When somebody comes to your home you always make tea usually dark black tea and have some simple cookies typically not very sweet sugary things like a little cracker or something and they had some some cookies and some tea together. They sat maxine told her something that she had never heard before she never heard that there was a god that loves her. She'd never heard of Jesus Christ turn tire life so just been very simple. Bogue Luby's to Tibia. God loves you and he told her that a very simple way so she would understand that though the Orthodox churches very much a big part of Ukraine she had never had access to that message before and Maxime and Martha Knelt next to each other. Next to her bad they prayed together and she accepted Jesus Christ as her Lord and Savior as Paul Missionary to Ukraine. Is Telling Me Martha Story? I'm thinking how many more Martha's are there in this world? People who have lived a lifetime many even part of some local or national religious tradition yet. They've never heard God so loved the world. He sent his son. Christ died on the cross so that each and every one of us can have freedom from the eternal consequences of our sin and a hope for the future. It was a big day of celebration about maxine. Called me We talked to Dennis. We're very excited about what that means for for her life. After that moment of decision about two weeks went by without much contact between Martha and the Church planting team in that Ukrainian village we were having our water baptism. Now we're in the capital city of Kief so about an hour and a half south of where this happened and so our church planters would go out and collect from some people from the churches and we had a big water baptism on the river in. Kief the river of the NEPEAN river. We now battles evil. I mean so. Maxine one up to to get to individuals that we're going to be baptized On that Saturday and they stopped by Martha's house knocked on the door and opened up the door and Maxime said that he saw Martha laying on her bed and her eyes were open. She has one window in her house in the sun was shining through the window onto her face and she had passed away. Just thirteen days. After hearing the love of Jesus. Maxine tall tells how he wrapped her in a blanket and closed her eyes he. He contacted the police in the next village over and they came over and collected her home. He drove down. And we were at our our our baptism. We're all having fun playing volleyball and doing things. And he pulled me aside. He told us what happened. And we all got together. We cried a little bit thought. About how patient and loving God was and and the opportunity that was made for her to hear of his love. You know I've often thought about about Martha even before she accepted. Christ we'd been praying for a lot of people who support US had been praying for her and how she had never had access to the message and all it really was was given the opportunity in an Oliver Payne and all of her all of her barriers and bubbles that she created for other people all took with somebody who's willing and patient and loving enough to step through all of those barriers and to reveal that was available for her missionary to Ukraine. Paul Yorkie telling the story of Martha the ninety five year old woman who gave her life to Christ with just days left this side of eternity today. We were Joyce that Martha is in the presence of her savior. Jesus Christ all thank you. I'm Tom Murray reports from missionaries. Who bring the message of hope around the world? This is messengers from Oak Creek. Assembly of God. We're a church near Milwaukee on mission to reach our world for Christ as we lead people to discover and become who God traded them to be find us at Oak Creek AG Dot Org pray passionately for missionaries and the spiritually lost give generously missions through your local church. Go where God calls you to go.

Martha Ukraine Maxine tall Paul International Church Martha Small Tom Murray Milwaukee International Church Martha Knelt Dennis Europe Keiv Chris Maxime Josef Stalin Paul Missionary Paul Yorkie NEPEAN river US
Trump And The Ukraine Call  What Happened And What's Next?

NPR Politics Podcast

16:50 min | 1 year ago

Trump And The Ukraine Call What Happened And What's Next?

"Hi this is tougher calling from my hometown of Boulder Colorado where I'm on my way to hear the NPR politics. podcast recorded live at the historic. Boulder theatre her where once as a kid. I played huckleberry Finn in the adventures of Tom Sawyer. This podcast was recorded at two thirty seven eastern on Monday. September twenty third things things may have changed by the time you hear this all right. Here's the show Mara. How's the show. It was awesome. Do you think it was better. The the adventures of huckleberry Finn Not for tofa probably not there. It's the NBA politics podcast. I'm Scott Detrick the campaign I'm Ryan Lucas. I cover the Justice Department and I'm Mara Liasson national political correspondent so in terms of big trump scandals. It's pressuring Russia Zaw Straighter Ukraine anywhere close run out now. Now wow translate please that was good by Russia in Russian. Hello Ukraine allegedly in Ukrainian. I think butchered the both while so we are saying goodbye Russia and hello to Ukraine because like a hurricane or storm pattern over the weekend this major story has developed about conversations and between president trump and the president of Ukraine where president trump allegedly exerted pressure made recommendations just happened to bring up casually in conversation however however you WanNa put it he wanted Ukraine to look into actions that Joe Biden might've taken in a way that would allegedly help president trump's campaign a lot of moving ving parts. It's kind of confusing Ryan what happened here so basically president trump and his personal attorney Rudy Giuliani have been pushing these allegations for a a bit of time that Joe Biden as vice president improperly used his office to push the Ukrainian government to dump a top prosecutor who who is investigating the company in which Joe Son Hunter Biden had a steak now. Is there any truth to that allegation. There is no evidence to back up these claims at this point it is true that Joe Biden was the point person for the Obama Administration on Ukraine and that he did indeed push the Ukrainian government to get rid of this prosecutor but what the US was not alone in that they were Western governments across the board who were pushing for this prosecutor to go because he was not taking sort of line that Western democracies thought was needed to be taken on the question of corruption but the main question here is not about what Vice President Biden was doing but rather the fact that president trump is on the phone with the influence of the office of the presidency and all of the assistance that the US can give a vulnerable country like Ukraine saying hey could you do this thing that would probably help presidential campaign out. That's what you say is is the main issue but the fact that Ryan just had to go through the allegations for which there is no evidence against Biden. This is what the president wants. This is what he has done. Every single time he's been asked about in the last couple of days is to talk about Joe Biden and this so far completely unfounded theory that Joe Biden and corruption in the Ukraine are somehow connected and revolve around hunter. There is no evidence for this welcome to the trump world Mara. We have talked so much in this podcast including right before all this started to happen. We had a long discussion about it last week about Democratic House leadership being very hesitant to move forward with impeachment. This development development seems to have changed their thinking a little bit. Why is that a little bit. The reason this is different and the reason why you have more Democrats calling for impeachment since the story broke is because more Democrats think this is a clear abuse of power. The president of the United States alleged to be using his office to pressure a foreign government to help him mm-hmm in his reelection campaign not to further the national security interests of the United States and there's another dynamic that we're GONNA get to in more detail in a little bit that this came forward forward through a formal whistleblower complaint and the White House is not turning that over to Congress. This is not a leak this was somebody this whistle blower who felt concerned and and worried enough about the content of this call that they went through the proper legal channels filed a whistle blower report and the law all says if the Inspector General the intelligence community determines that the report is urgent and credible it goes to Congress now. They're gonNA argue about whether if it involves the president had can be withheld from Congress but that's where we're at now. There is one thing that we have to be clear about and that is we don't know specifically that the whistleblower complaint does indeed relate to Ukraine. Those are reports so far the tricky thing here is that very few people have seen that whistleblower complaint. Congress does not have its its hands on it yet. That's what this whole standoff between the administration and Congress revolves around so just to be clear we we don't have one hundred percent confirmation that it involves Ukraine but we do know bill that the president talk to the Ukrainian president and that there are questions about that conversation so there's a lot swirling around at the moment and this is one of those stories where our podcast time stamp camp comes in handy because I'm sure some sort of detail will emerge over the next few hours. let me get this right. We know that there is a whistle blower complaint correct. We think that it possibly involves involves a conversation or several conversations with trump and the president of Ukraine correct and this is the part that I think is kind of remarkable president tron on in a in a whole range of comments made over the last few days as he traveled to Texas in the New York is basically saying yeah I did talk to the president of Ukraine and I talked to him about about corruption conversation I had was largely. Congratulatory was largely corruption. All of the corruption baking was largely the fact that we don't want our people like Vice President Biden done creating ruptured already in the Ukraine he as usual one of his IMOs to do everything in public. He is not hiding anything. He's seeming to say so one point. He said it doesn't matter what I discussed. Whatever I would ever ever I talked about was fine. It's almost by definition. If the president does it it can't be illegal or wrong. Well this presidency. Hisham that does have a very expansive view of executive power of most most white houses do but this one has certainly pushed the limits on that. I think he's even said article. Two of the constitution allows me to do whatever I want. Ryan the one another dynamic that's floating out here and we don't quite know how it fits in just yet is this big military aid package from the US to Ukraine. Could you explain what we know and in why it could matter well. The big question with the aid package is the fact that it was on the table. It's something that the Ukrainians need from the US they rely on US support Ukraine Ukraine of course is still locked in a sort of ongoing conflict with Russian backed separatists in the eastern part of Ukraine. They have relied a lot on US military support financial support this is important for the government in in keep the fact that the president is potentially according to these reports essentially using this as leverage on the Ukrainians hands as the allegations go to get them to open an investigation into Joe Biden and his son that is where we get into possible illegal L. conduct but certainly with a lot of people legal experts that I talked to you. I think Democrats would certainly say this and maybe some Republicans off record would say that this is improper conduct as well yeah right and don't forget Ukraine is desperate for US help it needs. US military aid really wanted an Oval Office meeting meeting between their new president and Donald Trump said they could show that they had the backing of the US. This is an anti Russian government. Donald trump generally does not like to do things that Vladimir Putin doesn't like the tricky part in questions about foreign aid is that the constitution gives the president broad powers when it comes to foreign policy to do as he sees fit that is something that there is really no great disagreement about what you can't do. Legal experts tend to say is you cannot do self-dealing and you can't even even do self-dealing in matters of a foreign policy that is a problem and that's what this whole scenario raises the question of so. That's one of the many outstanding the big questions. We have just got you covered. The campaign has team. Biden have to say about this the statement they put out the official statement at President Trump's willingness to abuse his power at a base our our country saying that there's truly no bottom to president trump's willingness to abuse his power of the Biden campaign. It's been very aggressive about saying that there was nothing improper about the the key. Vice President Biden Action and question of urging Ukraine to get rid of this prosecutor pointing out. This is something the thing that the World Bank several other national international actors were saying wanted to see happen of course there are a whole bunch of questions of unrelated into this about hunter. Biden's various business dealings the campaign Biden himself early on the campaign acknowledged that that was something he was bracing for political opponents to go after but in in this case they're saying the person that is improper. Here is the president making this request putting this pressure on on Ukraine right so we're going to take a quick break and when we come back we're going to talk about about how this is playing in. Congress that whistle blower report is a big part of that conversation. We're GONNA take a quick break support for NPR and the following message come from Rossi's. The's Roth these are the everyday flats for life on the go stylish versatile fully machine washable and they go with everything from Yoga Pants to dresses and skirts best first of all. There's zero break in period. Thanks to their woven design seamlessly crafted from recycled water bottles plus. Rossi's always come with free shipping and free returns parents and exchanges find out why buzzfeed called them there forever shoes at Rossi's dot com slash weekly an incident. Nashville that shocked the Latino community community a computer designed to control the entire Chilean economy a Martian invasion and Ecuador is back with a brand new season. NPR SPANISH-LANGUAGE PODCASTS. We'll take you around putting America to show you the fascinating strange and compelling stories of the region subscribe and listen every Tuesday okay we are back and we have had like thirty thousand conversations about House Speaker Nancy Pelosi's hesitance to move forward on impeachment over the weekend she sent a letter to other House Democrats and it said at the end if if the administration persists in blocking this whistle blower from disclosing to Congress a serious possible breach of constitutional duties by the president they will be entering a grave new new chapter of lawlessness which will take us into a whole new stage of investigations didn't say the word impeachment but she certainly pointed in that direction. I think this a serious and her bar impeachment has always been does it have bipartisan support in the public therefore it could get Republican support in Congress. That has never been present. We don't see at present now. There have been a few small mild comments by Republicans saying this is troubling or what did Mitt Romney saying. If it's it's true it would be troubling in the extreme but so far it's just Democrats and what Nancy Pelosi's worried about is if you impeach the president which is the equivalent of indicting him in the house then you go onto the trial in the Senate he will be acquitted and that will be a huge triumph for the president could cause a backlash against Democrats and cost the White House in twenty twenty. I think what we've seen time and again in situations like this as Republicans try to keep their head down and I think that that's what we're seeing now. Is You have the occasional voice here and there but we're not seeing them. Come Out across the board. It will be interesting to see now that the week has started what they have to say when they're asked about this on the hill and the other interesting thing to watch is is are Democrats GonNa make this fight about the transcript of the call because on that the White House has very strong grounds to say presidential communications with other foreign leaders should be confidential dental or are they going to focus on the whistle blower report where they have at least some legal backing to have the right to to to see it as part of their oversight authority and we should could say at this moment we do not know how broad or narrow the whistleblower complaint is. It could be about that. Call could be about more of the things questions we don't know Samara. Elizabeth Warren tweeted tweeted something this weekend and I saw it I thought Ooh that's a good thing to ask more about the podcast because you have been someone who's thought a lot about norms over the last couple years and how they've changed changed and how they're being tested and pushed so this is what Warren said after the Muller Report Congress had a duty to begin impeachment by failing to act congress is complicit in trump's latest attempt to solicit foreign interference aid and elections in US elections. Do your constitutional duty and impeach the president. What do you make that argument that trump saw the mullahs report. Come and go thought I'M NOT GONNA face any political consequences and may have continued to you know get on the phone with the Foreign Leader Elizabeth Elizabeth Warren is running for president. She's appealing to the activist liberal base of the Party who very much wants Congress to impeach the president. She's not worrying about a general election right now how or keeping the house but in terms of norms you know not everything that is improper and abusive power is illegal impeachment. Impeachment is a political judgment. That's going to be made by elected representatives if they believe that he has abused power committed a high crime and misdemeanor meaner. They'll decide to impeach him but the fact that it's a political judgment means they have to think about whether it has public support what happens when it goes to the Senate you know every Democrat credit calls for impeachment comes from a specific political place Elizabeth Warren running for president a lot of the Democrats in Congress who are calling for come from safe democratic districts to President and has done an astounding job of walking a very fine line walking at the margins of what legal experts I was talking to with today said between improper and unethical and illegal and he's walked that line and dad has had in view of the legal experts that I spoke with a very corrosive impact on norms of how the US functions respect for US law. That is their view. I think that that's the view of a lot of Democrats and it will be interesting to see as I said earlier earlier how Republicans on the hill when asked about this specific particularly if the details do come out. How are they going to view this behavior. Look the thing about norms. Is there not it just by definition. They're not laws. They're not codified. They depend on individuals restraint and respect for the other branches of government and when that disappears when norms are eroded either our entire constitutional system with its checks and balances is weakened or sometimes sometimes what happens and we saw this after Watergate. When power changes hands norms are codified are they start passing as a as a reform they pass laws that says it's a law now you have to release your tax returns or it's a law you know presidents can be indicted to me? One of the most striking things was that you go back to all all of the conversation about the mother report and whether it would lead to peach mint right that first part of the report lays out all of this this effort by four and actors by Russian actors actors to influence the election but boil down it came down to well there was no high level conversation between trump and Putin or or or anything like that so then what happens a high level conversation between trump and the head of another government saying hey. Can you do something that could help me in the election like to me. It was like wow you just pushed it. One step further history repeats itself as far as the specifics of what was said on the call. I think are going to be very important though and we don't know what specifically what set it is important that we made that clear we we don't know at this point okay so as confidently as we can say which is probably not that confidently in the grand scheme of things. Do we have a sense win. We could get answers to some of these key questions or win. Next Steps could be taken. There are two interesting meetings this week. Trump is scheduled to meet with Ukrainian president on Wednesday at the United Nations United Nations and then on Thursday. The director of National Intelligence. WHO's in the role in an acting capacity is due to testify before the House Intelligence Committee. which is pushing pushing him to hand over this whistle blower complaint? He is going to have to answer in public as much as he can as to why he's holding onto it that is going to be very interesting to here and when that happens we will cover it in this podcast and win. President trump makes news at the United Nations. We will cover it in this podcast. I have a feeling we're going need to have a lot of episodes this week. That is all for today. Though I'm Scott detro- I covered the campaign I'm Ryan Lucas Cover the Justice Department and I'm Mara Liasson national political correspondent responding. Thank you for listening to the N._p._R. PODCAST.

president Donald Trump Ukraine Joe Son Hunter Biden Congress vice president United States Ryan Lucas NPR Russia Zaw Straighter Ukraine White House Mara Liasson Elizabeth Elizabeth Warren national political corresponde NBA prosecutor Justice Department huckleberry Finn Boulder theatre
Ukraine opens probe into alleged ambassador surveillance

PRI's The World

47:13 min | 9 months ago

Ukraine opens probe into alleged ambassador surveillance

"The five countries that lost people in the Iran plane crash are meeting in London today and they want answers answers. The world is waiting for those answers and we will not rest until we get them. Also Ukraine wades into the US impeachment trial while. It's the first time that any grain in State Boise State Institution to initiative in the whole Sewri Saga Amitav from Australia's Australia's bushfires is coming into focus. Where homes used to stand? There's now silence there is smoke. The earth is still very honked. It's smoldering explore black. It's ash there were remains of what used to be a house. There's nothing there are Marco Werman. Those stories are more today here on the world role. I'm Marco Werman. This is the world good to have you with us. Ukraine Ukraine is at the center president trump impeachment trial which officially began today but Kiev has largely said. That's an American issue. Until now Ukraine's Ministry of Internal Affairs said today that it's opening a criminal probe of its own. It's going to investigate. Whether international laws were broken when allies of president trump with the former American American ambassador to Ukraine under surveillance newly released text messages and documents suggest this the source lead parnasse and associate of Rudy. Giuliani Parnis is a Soviet born businessman. And it's been making the media rounds saying the president of the United States knew what was going on the BBC's Irina Taranov told me what Ukraine's Raines criminal probe could look like Marco. The criminal probe looks perfectly justified because according to the statement of Ukrainian Internal Home Office a crime seems to be committed in Ukraine because it is a crime to have civilians of diplomatic communications and also violation of Vienna Convention on the Privy Protection for foreign diplomats so Ukraine's hand was forced in a way into opening this probe but when you read the details details or what it is that they opened it becomes obvious that this criminal investigation or criminal probe is actually an appeal to the FBI. The I in the United States to provide details because as the statement from Ukrainian law enforcement says it could be just bravado. It could be Mr Hyde and left Baranov pretending to have more importance on knowing more than they actually did that. Maybe there was no surveillance A such so it's an appeal to the FBI. Show us the cause that you've got and then we will investigate further whether a crime indeed has taken in place in Ukraine right rob hide. He's allegedly the person who was doing the surveillance exactly but he couldn't do it without the help of some Ukrainian associates in an interview with radio on. MSNBC last night live Parnell. said he actually did not take the view that Maria Vich was ever endanger when Robert Hyde was tracking hacking. So it's clear that you didn't take Mr Hyde seriously. In terms of the factual claims that he was making. But are you clear on whether or not there was ever an actual physical threat or a threat of personal intimidation against Ambassador Ivanovich. Never from my side or anybody I know for Ukrainians how reliable voices voices Parnassus until his arrest. Left baroness was virtually unknown in Ukraine. What he told racial motto about Marcia van original being in any danger physically is true because you know she was the head of the diplomatic representations of the most powerful country in the world and as such she had diplomatic protection that was due her yet the fact that some people could brag about tracking movements in cave being across the ocean? Of course I would imagine a big cause for concern. So Ukraine's been pulled into the middle of complicated. US domestic affairs and with with the Ukrainian plane catastrophe in Iran. It's become tragic at a global scale so the fact that Ukraine is now part of the geopolitical tensions. How are people in Kiev talking about that? What are you hearing Eh Marco? And this is the biggest enigma of all because Ukraine is very reluctant and being pulled into the spotlight on the other the hand this tragedy in the age of social media. You cannot stay away from the center stage particularly if it's your plane that is being downed particularly if you had problem neighbors like Russia claiming that you do not have the right to exist young and inexperienced as he's mostly portrayed by western Ukrainian media alike Ukraine Presidents Alinsky found himself between a rock and hard. Fleece is the first time that any Ukrainian Estate Body State Institution took initiative in the whole Sewri Saga of pressure on Ukraine over Biden's and the whole impeachment story in the United States so politicians Zelinski circle deserve having better depot. Oh carrying attention from the Washington it would seem the BBC's Iryna on your thank you very much. Thank you Marco that Ukrainian Airlines plane crash was the focus is of high level meetings in London today. Representatives of the five nations besides Iran with citizens among the victims on the plane were there Ukraine Sweden Afghanistan the U. K.. A as well as Canada. Here's Canadian Foreign Minister. Francois Philippe Chumpon families want answers. All of the countries assemble ear here today. Want answers and we will not rest until we get them. The five nations made a number of demands on Iran. They want want an independent transparent investigation with full access for international investigators. They want to help identify the victims and want their remains to be repatriated to where ever requested by. Next of kin shop added this. The Iranian government has accepted full responsibility. But when you accept full responsibility there's consequences this coming from that and that's what we're going to be pursuing. The main consequentially said was accountability. He specifically said he expected to see prosecutions of those responsible and and compensation to the families of victims shown. You also added that the nations of the world had another responsibility. Obviously we want to get to the bottom of things but also as the world community the world would like us to think about measures to prevent incidents like that from happening again in Australia. Finally some relief today rain Eliot little hooting and hollering on the front porch a home in Canberra as a steady downpour fell on the Australian capital. But that's after months of unprecedented heat and drought that has stoked massive bushfires. A little rain rain today has not ended that the BBC Shaima Halil is reporting from fire ravaged communities across Australia. She spoke with the world's Carol Hills about being on the frontlines. The Fires Shaima recently on Kangaroo Island one of Australia's most well-known Wildlife Sanctuaries the Wildlife Park owner Sam Mitchell. He was told to evacuate but he decided to stay to try to defend the animals there. Here's what he told you when you say paper come running through our doors with a Koala wrapped in a blanket with with severe burns and hysterical. They want to do everything they can for these animals but we can save those that have gone well it was the damage at the conservation. Park fire came James Very very close to them needs at one point. The Wind Changed Direction and they were spared however the island itself has suffered such extensive of damage that now there are fears that half of it about two hundred thousand acres have been completely destroyed by the fires. The western part of the island flinders chase which is home to the National Park at its. It's one of the most important wildlife havens not just in Australia. Elliot but in the world because it is home to native species that have lived on the island for centuries scientists. Were telling me was traveling back in time because these species were secure take a now. It's been destroyed very grave concerns about the future of these species because either some of them have perished in those fires or those who survived it. They'll be no food. No water no shelter for them. What's been the toll on the people trying to save the animals? You see people absolutely breaking down. I'm in tears. Spoken to a couple in one of the evacuation centers. They had actually lived on the border. A flinders chase so they could see the National National Park and when they talk about how beautiful it was how you could see Koalas on trees and how it just completely turned into black ash from something to nothing nothing. Their house was completely destroyed but they went back to try and save animals old. You were telling me was always care about now. Is the animals even covering the fires ars for weeks now. What's the scene after a fire has come through? I mean how do people begin to rebuild. Oh you know the the one thing that actually stays with with me. Every time I go into a scene is the silence because you walk into a scene after a fire and it's just dead silent. There is smoke the earth is still very hot. It's smoldering it's black. It's ash there remains of what used to be a house but there's nothing there it silent. I think the other thing that really stays with me is that without fail. The people taking me through the sites devastation of what used to be their homes. They eight point to things like they'd say here's the lounge. Here's the pantry that my husband build. This is where we used to hang out and watch television. It's really really personal Shaima. You interviewed wildlife keeper John Marsh at a sanctuary in southeastern Australia. He's angry at the government's response to the fires. Hopefully this disaster is going to influence the government to stop just putting development and money before environment ornament Shaima. Is this something you're hearing a lot of. I mean are people recovering from the fires. Making the connection between the government's environmental policies. Many of them are. There is a big push now for the government to engage in the climate change issue. which is something they've been reluctant to do? The Prime Minister has addressed it a couple of times. We have yet to see specific plans as specific policies about climate change which is what everybody is debating now in which the government hasn't provided added yet. Peak fire season in Australia has only just started far. Conditions are expected to continue for months. How are people coping without? There's very little that you can do in the face of of of a raging fire especially if it grows to a point where it's uncontrollable Joins with another fire. One of the things that one of the firefighters. Our fight was told me when I told him you know. What are you GONNA do next? What happens in the next few weeks? He just looks at me and looks in the sky and says we we just we pray for rain because unless we have a substantial change in the weather less rains in a way that will change the situation on the ground. This is just going into happen. Shaima Khalil is. BBC reporter are based in Sydney. Thanks a lot Shaima great to be with you Carol. The world's Carol Hills there will be watching to see if today's rain was enough to make the kind of impact that Shaima was describing describing. In the meantime it's hard not to react to images of Koalas injured in the fires but sometimes our desire to help isn't so helpful. Here's the world's Amanda McGowan file this next one under well meaning gestures with unintended consequences one petition circulating online with about twelve thousand signatures. I have an idea. Why not relocate these? Koalas to Australia's neighbour New Zealand seems harmless rate. Well not quite Andrea by. I'm an ecologist in Christ church. She spoke to the CBC. I completely understand we have people coming from bash on Nari from experience in from my casino array search that brings faces to other countries in introducing them into places where they haven't been previously is never go idea. Byron's concern concern is that Koalas could become an invasive species in New Zealand. That's one species is introduced to a new place and faced with no natural predators. There starts starts to cause big problems for native flora and fauna in New Zealand. This problem isn't just theoretical. It's very real. Allow this video from. The Predator are free N. Z.. Trust to explain. We should not at all with some pretty special native wildlife for millions of years. The only treated as bids and our any memos. And we're a couple of bits but we early settlers introduced animals like Rick's possums and Stugotz. They put on native species at risk. Invasive species kill an estimated tomato twenty five million native birds every year in New Zealand that includes birds. That can't be found anywhere else in the world like the iconic flightless Kiwi. It's it's such a big concern that in two thousand sixteen then Prime Minister John Key announced a bold new initiative by twenty fifty every single part of New Zealand we completely free of rats stoats. POSSUMS four years on those efforts using traps and poisonous bait have found some success. The New Zealand government says over one hundred offshore islands are free of pests but they have a long way to go so you can imagine why New Zealanders might not be keen on introducing inducing another new species as for the Koalas. Andrew Byrom has other ideas Maputo's new viewers that we should be focusing on rehabilitating hating systems in Australia and sitting up policies and practices that enable Australians to do this these bang a large amount of habitat get lost in Australia. We should all be worried about it. And with the fires those worries are growing exponentially for the world. I'm Amanda McGowan and here's yet another destructive aspect of the fires. Social media conspiracies tomorrow how twitter bots are trying to convince people that arson is causing. Australia's unprecedented ended fires. You're listening to the world. I'm Marco Werman. This is the world two decades in power and four more years to go but Russian President Vladimir Putin is looking beyond the end of his current term perhaps laying the groundwork to keep his grip on power as as we reported yesterday Putin surprised his own cabinet along with the rest of the world when he announced sweeping constitutional changes the BBC's Moscow correspondent Steve Rosenberg. Doug looks at how Russians are reacting as Moscow. Woke up this morning. It didn't feel view is if much has changed in Russia the number thirty eight tram was traveling along as normal transporting bleary eyed commuters. The street cleaners. This were out in force clearing the slushy pavements. It was only when I went up to my local newspaper. Kiosk Balsam papers and looked at the headlines. I was reminded of the drama which unfolded yesterday in Moscow January Revolution. One paper here is calling it. And yes what what happened. Did feel revolutionary something of a political earthquake without any warning. The Russian government had resigned on mass and the Russian president had proposed sweeping constitutional changes. So what exactly is going on. Well this is about Vladimir Putin and power in four years time what his current term ends he will be constitutionally obliged to leave the presidency. The changes he's he's proposing a peer to give him options remaining in power after twenty. Twenty four if not as president then in a different role perhaps says head of the Russian State Council of the National Security Council or Prime Minister. Or maybe as leader of the ruling party no one's this quite sure which scenario will be selected Russian. MP Vyacheslav Nikonov believes that even without an official position or title Putin will remain influential one way or another which will be an important figure. Even if he'll stay retired torture he'll still be a very important play. In Russian. Politics is office over doubt. Get them what you're still not study. It's loose to the communities as I speak to like you'd get Rena claim they'd be happy if Vladimir Putin continues to run the country. He's the best president we've ever had kids Serena says more than they used report that I don't mind eating turnips and gross tooting his rights to spend our money on building building up defenses. It support like this. The Kremlin leaders will be counting on as he pushes ahead with his plan to change. Russia's Constitution the BBC's Steve Rosenberg reporting there from Moscow. That's something Japan's environment environment ministers going to hear a lot. More of Shinjiro Koizumi announced. He's going to take advantage of his country's generous. Paternity leave policy. After his baby is born later this month this would make him the highest ranking Japanese official. Ever to do so. This is a really big deal there. That's because in Japan new fathers rarely take time off from work. Koizumi is is but he's not even taking a fraction of his full benefits. He's only taking two weeks off. When under Japan's policy he could take up to a year? Here's the RUB. Only six percent scent of Japanese fathers take any paternity leave at all and a Granada is a social and economic policy consultant for UNICEF. She was the main author of a two thousand. Nineteen units F- report short on family friendly policies and high income countries as where the announcement from Japan's Environment Minister Grandma also believes it's a big deal and unencouraging sign firstly. We are very happy that this is happening. This is good for families this good for children secondly out of old high income countries and we study only thirty offer any paternity leave and hub of this country's offer two weeks of less so what he's taken his actually the the maximum amount that is available in many other high income countries would important for us. Is that people in positions Of Power lead by example. This is important when we have a look at the research about the motives prevent men from taking paternity leave this motives in Japan. The top three reasons have something to do with the employment relationship. People are afraid of the unfavourable favorable atmosphere. People are afraid of their bosses. People are afraid of putting too much burden on their colleagues personal motives such as lower pay. Hey appear only US assessment main reason why men are not taking delete. This means that if you are a man in a position of power and other men men and women below you would like to do it but cannot because they're afraid of you once you make this move humor empower older people to manage. That's why we take it as a very positive news. Even though he's taking two weeks of a possible fifty two weeks paternity leave. I mean is that really leading by example what is happening here is a social change so when we have a look at one percent of take up that was happening in two thousand seven this is still a remarkable progress especially Ashley if we remained. Aren't that what he takes is actually more done. What most men think European countries well? How long ago did Japan start? As generous paternity relief police. In what was the motivation. Okay first attempts have appeared before two thousand seven however did Japan was increasing its length on a regular basis between two thousand thirteen and two thousand nineteen which means that today. It does the country with the single longest attorney need to leave around the world. It has fifty two weeks attorney to leaks hate on average fifty eight cents which just gives gives you an equivalent of thirty weeks off will pay but it's not necessarily the case that just because you're rich country you offer a generous paternity policies in Switzerland Greece the United Kingdom. They're not doing too well are they. Yes yes the first is whether you have conditions for doing this for example mass measured by You'll GDP and the second thing is whether there is a political will to do something so for example the US which is the richest country in history in terms terms of what it produces in terms of GDP is the only high income country that offers nothing in terms of maternity opportunity so clearly a wealth is not a guarantee of a policy and by the family and medical leave act of nineteen ninety-three for maternity leave. But I think that only applies to workplaces a fifty or more employees. Please yes but what we look. At our statutory entitlements we are perfectly aware of many employers that compensate for lack of statutory entitlements arguments in the US however it will just important for us when we choose our indicators is to make sure that it's something which is protected by law. It's something that is not at the grace of your employer to give it to you or to withdraw from you. We consider to be a right. As also from the child's it's rights perspective and we only look at the length of this guaranteed so Environment Minister Koizumi will take two weeks the paternity leave You seem to think that's pretty encouraging. What kind of bonding? You think will really happen in two weeks. Between Koizumi and his child in a position to people's private lives and he's child sorry and a Granada a social and economic policy consultant for UNICEF. She was the main the author of a UNICEF report on family friendly policies in high income countries. Thanks for being with us. Really appreciate it thank you. You're with the World Alyona ALYONA now. A music finorm and Ukraine but she started out mimicking. What she I thought rap was supposed to be? Should put you up so I rapped about using drugs and some of the street life that I saw around me the kind of lifestyle. That wasn't really me. No no kidding. She was actually a kindergarten teacher. ALYONA ALYONA story and rhymes coming up here on the world I'm Marco Werman. This is the world. We're CO PRODUCTION OF THE BBC World Service W. G. B. H. Boston NPR ex. An American imprisoned in Egypt reached out to president. President trump for help in two thousand thirteen stuff Akassim was accused of being a spy and taking part in protests against the Egyptian government. After five years in pretrial detention in he was sentenced to fifteen years in prison Casa managed to smuggle a handwritten note out of a maximum security prison in Egypt. I am putting my life in your hands. The father of two small children wrote to the president earlier. This week. Qassem died in prison of heart. Failure Muhamed Soltan is a human rights activists in head of the Freedom Initiative if he represented costume during his case in Egypt. He's a former political prisoner himself in joins us from Washington. This is such a tragic story. Could you tell us just the bit I about who custom was. I couldn't agree more first time. I laid eyes on him in an addiction. Prison tore up present. You know small frame. Big Smile Lyell softspoken himself. Kind of guy and you know talking to him about how much he loved New York. I'd hate New York. I busied his how much he loved. His business user auto auto parts dealer and just full of life on the having overlapped with him for five months in prison Interacted with him so many times in knowing that he was was definitely a bystander. He was at the wrong place at the wrong time that got picked up simply because he had an American passport. This is not just a trump problems is also unabomber problem album. I was in prison. During President Obama's Times thankfully President Obama along with Senator McCain and others worked extremely hard to get me out after I was sentenced since the life in prison but unfortunately we weren't able to extend that same kind of leverage that happened with me and others like Hijazi and and others as we were able to extend that. It's it's heartbreaking. I adjudge in another American who was in prison but freed on during the trump administration. Yes well we know that more recently senior senior. US officials were aware of custom situation including President Trump and secretary state. Mike Pompeo In fact in January twenty eighteen after a visit to Cairo Vice President Pence said that he spoke with President Assisi about cousins imprisonment and that CECE had assured him he would give that very serious attention. So what happened. How does the State Department let something like this happen? I'm see I don't know what I know for. Sure as myself Hijazi monetary the other American citizen that will feed we are living testaments. What's of the leverage that the United States government does have with Egypt that we simply chose not to use with cost them? There is more that needed to be done. They're still six American prisoners still in Egypt and we have not use that leverage and let me say this the conditions of prison that stuff stuff I was in. If he were healthy he still would have been at risk of dying because of the absolute medical neglect. You in prison for two years. I mean awesome did end up in a hospital so you say there's no medical attention though in committee for Justice a Geneva based two-night organization documented nine hundred deaths in the last couple of years in Egypt you neglect including the former ousted president again Stuff was someone who was a diabetic. He had a heart disease. Was He's cancer survivor. You know he was already at risk without a hunger strike but the desperation. I know that because I went on on a hunger strike to regain my freedom that desperation as you say Mohammed There are six other American national still imprisoned in Egypt the the leverage the US has obviously billions of dollars in American aid to the country. Do we know of any efforts to release these prisoners. I don't know what other efforts are. There we keep advocating on behalf of not just American citizens but also Egypt says there are sixty thousand political prisoners in Egypt. Can you imagine how every single single one of those people literally what they have gone to sleep thinking that if the world is going to let an American die on hunger strike in prison in their screw that they're toast muhammed in the five months. You were in prison with Qasim. Is there one memory you keep the you know just really really kind of captures who he was again. If I remember the first time I saw him an underground dungeon in my way with guards and soldiers to to get to hit the word that he was and I remember laying eyes on him and I remember saying what the Hell's the guy like you doing in a place like this and you know he. He smiled at me and told me very very soft voice. He said while. Not a troublemaker. Like you and it was so comforting. Every time we talked because we felt like in this place that we had were sleeping on floor with eighteen. Thousand Nine thousand people small wrong sharing a hole in the floor as a bathroom barely getting sunlight barely getting medical care and to just have conversations stations about the places that we have been in the places that we hope to be to go to all of those conversations are are are coming back to the very early and I really really wish we could have had had those conversations in New York somewhere burger or something but you know. We're hoping that he's a better place now my condolences muhamed. Soltan is a human rights activists and head of the Freedom Initiative has been speaking with us about US National Moustapha Kassem who has died in prison in Egypt Mohammed. Thank you very much thank so much. Puerto Rico has been dealing with earthquakes for weeks. The biggest was a six point four magnitude but the aftershocks have also been really strong. One of Puerto America's largest power plants was damaged plunging most of the island into widespread blackouts for days blackouts are now familiar. Puerto Ricans because the islands grid was so badly damaged after Hurricane Maria in twenty seventeen and since Maria communities there have created systems to keep the lights on with micro grids. Jose Santa Rosa joins joins us from San Juan. He's a director of resilient power. Puerto Rico Jose. What exactly is a micro? What does it look like? It's essentially an electrical generation and storage system that is independent. From the great itself it could be solar solar panels could be win. The source of energy really doesn't matter here. We've I've been using solar panels to generate electricity and then batteries to store the power it. It doesn't matter whether they're the green is operating or not you. You can rely on your local power. So after Maria your organization setup micro grids in over thirty community centers why focus on community centers. I the right. After the hurricane it was very are difficult to to provide services to the general public because of communication issues lack of power transportation. So throw the island the the island of Puerto Rico. They're they're community centers that have been set off by nonprofit municipal governments and so forth and it seemed to be the most efficient way to will give power to those centers that provide direct services to the community. How did those micro grids fair after last week's earthquake I think there were impressed in in the thirty five installation that we have gone through Puerto Rico the centers were able to provide energy after the blackout and in the two closest to the epicenter In the southwest in Yaoko imposing the one in ponce had to be abandoned because the structure of the building or was in a precarious condition but the winding is able to provide services. And we're actually looking to expand the capacity electric capacity of that system because of the demand for services. I'm wondering why why the idea of resilient power is so important specifically to the island of Puerto Rico. We have a an electrical local system that is still vulnerable to two. Major disruptions are work at community centers is trying to have them sufficient and power that they can continue to provide services and they can become hobbs in their communities to manage any any sort of this rupture or catastrophe. How do you define resilience when it comes to power the the ability to come back after a major disruption or significant disruption and also committees independence independence in in the way that they can manage These situations so making those systems available not only to community the centers board board critical facilities. We've been working. Recently with a critical facilities and what critical facilities are and how to power them is very very important so that society can continue on and comeback after a major storm or an earthquake or or whatever but we also don't see this micro-states grades necessarily as substitute in your greed. We we see them as complimentary redundancy for these organizations and for society in general we advocate. Hey that these systems to be seen as redundant systems that can provide the facility to comback easily but none has early. They will also also planned or substitute the the general greed that that we have is the main barrier resources to having this all of the island money is it that simple as that. Yes yes for for so many tuitions and for some organizations is financing the ability to finance systems. So one of the things that we've been working on is creating Financial mechanisms that can be used to to get To spread the Maccabi Tech. Ross all of the islands. I'm just curious. How much did Last week's earthquakes and the tremors kind of re energize your your your project and what you're doing. I think it brought a different light light onto the need for energy resilience because earthquakes course are not predictable. So people don't have earthquakes in their mind signed and the earthquakes particularly affect the generation of power at large power plants because they automatically showed off because also the vibrations. proved by the earthquake in some instances temporary shaw showdown buddies in other instances where there are damages to transmission lines onto onto structure is is more money or a longer term effect. Jose Juan TERRESA with resilient power. Puerto Rico San Juan. Thanks very much and good luck with the project. Thank you very much. Britain will formally exit the European Union at the end of this month. That date marks the beginning of a transition period that will last at least until till the end of the year. Lawmakers in the E U in Britain hoped to hammer out details on trade law enforcement data sharing and countless other issues another small piece of the puzzle it will be how the UK funds scientific research and how easy or hard it will be for scientists to work outside of their home countries. The world's Caroline Bela reports at Brexit. Uncertainty is already having an impact from his post at the University of Saint Andrews in Scotland Marina Colleges Lars Bouma notice to the impact of Brexit exit. Right away in the summer of Twenty Sixteen. It started on the day of the referendum on the morning when the outcome. You can hear that on the news. People we'll have spoken and the answer is where out voting for infringers exit dubbed. Greg set once the largest empire. Britain is an island again colleagues from Europe. Talk to me that point writing a proposal for European funding and we decided the best way would be to take off. Take His name off the grant proposal proposal. Bouma and his collaborators figured they might not win a competitive European Union grant if a professor from the UK were listed as a lead researcher. It's gut feeling that if they think you out of the UNIX year than they don't want to fund you for the next five years Bouma wasn't the only one not to apply for that money if you look at the biggest pot of EU research funding UK. Scientists have gotten a smaller share recently. They're funding dropped. Nearly half a Billion Dollars from I'm twenty fifteen before the Brexit vote to twenty eight eighteen the UK also had fewer EU scientists coming on specific fellowships and at his university Z.. Bouma saw a drop in applications from potential. PhD students from Europe. In the past I had maybe half of the applicants coming from the EU. In the last two years I had no application from the EU. It's a dramatic loss in numbers across the UK. Almost a third of academic researchers are from abroad and half of those come from European Union countries very significant fraction. That's van Ke Ramakrishnan the president of the Royal Society Britain's National Academy of Science. He argues that a very international workforce is a good thing for science. Science should be free flowing. Science depends on the exchange of ideas on the exchange of people who bring the ideas and you can see that in in the US. Ramakrishnan says American science flourished after World War Two when researchers flocked to the US to escape war ravaged Europe. That just goes to show you. How House Signs is if you have free flowing information? Free flow of people that just accelerate science worldwide as brexit becomes a reality science against groups. Want to keep that flow of people and of money as open as possible. Ramakrishnan his optimistic based on what he's hearing from. Boris Johnson's government and August. The prime minister said he would turn the UK into a magnet for scientists from around the world by streamlining Immigration Policy Queen. Elizabeth made a similar statement and her queen's speech last month a modern fair point based immigration. System will welcome skilled workers from across the world to contribute to the United Kingdom's economy communities and public services. So far Johnson's government has announced an expansion engine and the number of fellowships that can offer quick visas for visiting scientists but Ramakrishnan says it's early days still and he worries about Britain getting a reputation Chen for being unwelcoming. I'm non white American who came to Britain relatively late in life and they're not many countries that would take someone an who's an outsider. Who can make them? The president of their national academy which is what the Royal Society is so in a way I reflect the traditional additional bonus of Britain and British science and that is what I hope that country preserves going forward it will take at least a year to hammer out the details sales of brexit but the ordeal has already had lasting impacts on science oceanographer. Bostian cast spent fifteen years in Britain. But he just left his research position at the University of East Anglia for a job at the University of Gothenburg in Sweden. I wasn't originally looking for jobs. At this period. I had another three years left on my contract but then the Brexit vote happened cast is French and he was a little worried about visa issues but his biggest concern heard was access to that big pile of European research money. You know it's a competitive career and you move forward by getting getting papers and getting research grants and if you don't have the funding opportunities it's hard to go out there and do good work. Now that cast has left England he says he doesn't see incentive tentative to bring him back for the world I'm Caroline Bieler. We began the show today in Ukraine. And we close there as well. Ukraine's been on our minds a lot lately. La But those headlines Politics corruption impeachment. Ukraine is much more than that. Don't you know so a cultural counterweight is in order. The world's Daniel Offman Offman reports from Kiev. Once upon a time in a small village in central Ukraine. There was a girl named Lana. She had a modest upbringing but she love everything about it. She loved the unpaved roads. The cows grazing in the field and the mushroom picking in the forest. She enjoyed swimming in the lake throughout the summer and ice skating on it during during the winter when I turn six she started writing poetry and when she grew a bit older she would write pop songs as well. Then I learned seven. Onion good turned twelve the ski. She wrote a riskier. The first wraps I heard were probably American like Eminem I started translating his rap and lots of other rappers. I listen to. I was curious what they're rapping talking about. Something clicked with alone and hip hop and she liked that there was more space and freedom to express herself it was like the poetry tricia used to rate but without all the rigid rules as she got older. Writing rap lyrics was just part of her life darkness. But I'm sure a peculiar you'll put up with so I started writing about the things that were happening around me but you know some of it wasn't all true. I really wanted the Ukrainian rap community he to accept me. So I rapped about using drugs and some of the street life that I saw around me the kind of lifestyle. That wasn't really me. She embraced American. Gangsta Rep. Because that's what she thought it was supposed to be all about but I wasn't getting greedy. Knowledge is teaching about all the Respect Tony Yeah. You go alone kept her job as a kindergarten teacher but she also kept wrapping and getting more attention. She took on the rap name Alana loan for a while she wrote lyrics and Russian because many of the rappers that she listened to were Russian but then something changed my cavalier. In Ukraine language was began again and I start to wrap it in Ukraine language. She read more Ukrainian literature. She was teaching mostly in Ukrainian and around the same time in two thousand. Fourteen Ukraine went through revolution. People here started feeling a stronger sense of pride in their language and on the felt the same flaws. This song called rookie or simply fish in English was a Leonardo Yoenis. I hit it got more than two million views on youtube food value. The song is simply about how well fish the way. They look the way they swim. But if you dig deeper it's really about how powerful fish can be. There may not be anything special official about them at first glance during the storm. They gracefully swim underwater. All say a person on a boat becomes vulnerable talk abuses day when this was a meal shirts apiece net. Most people understood with the song about that. It's not about fishing water. It's about girls girls and their place in society goals who are bullied because they're different girls who face abuse further. Wait for their style. Body positivity is a big theme in music in this track is called which can roughly be translated as the bomb tape in it. She calls herself Koska a word. That's used as an insult for people who are overweight. But Donna adopts the word she makes her own and she carries herself with Swagger solved. The speech us the Gaullists would you taming homes for Chiming Bouillon home. Well it's part of my life. I've encountered countered a lot of body shaming fat shaming bullying. My Life. Now people ask me. How can you be so cool and I tell them I'm like everyone else? I just accepted myself the way I. Dan Lana Lana hasn't wavered from that positive message. She rarely curses in her music. And that Gangsta rap style is long gone. One of her recent tracks is all about standing up to bullies pull his diploma quoted placement data. Talk so much. Stay up about Sheila Pity Causal Program. Woo would bullied home with Roy. Marcus Pride I saw that sprite. Bright had an anti bullying campaign and I wanted to work with them. I decided to make a music video where I play. Different characters like Goth Basketball player and others showing that every person is unique. We shouldn't be afraid to be ourselves and we shouldn't be afraid to stand strong against bullying. Take me check out the video by the way at the world dot Org in Ukraine. Lana is one of the country's number one artist She's already toured all across Europe. So I thank God that I have possibility to introduce my country and my music in the European unconscious and I will do this in future. Because I don't want to wrap it in the other and I I'm not ready. I don't have so many words to they say in English may be or in Russian. I want to do it in Ukraine when I asked alone. Leona she kindly gave me a taste of one of her newest tracks. It's called Gaza Oscar. That's the Ukrainian word for fairy tale. But it's fairytale not to boat. Some heroes is about people in Ukraine. Okay I have such a talented. Those who squiggly put the past career kitten Pasta Cooper s-class. The bus blast shoot the posts the classroom or do we have to impose the Cusco. Multiple Pasco does retire. Pass leaving yeah clustered instead of daughter. Deploy blown Taylor said the catch skills for real alyona track Khadka or fairy tale there that came to us from the world's Daniel often providing what they say they go as more cultural counterweights awaits tomorrow. We'll meet singer songwriter. Jay Endara it got to the US by chance he won the State Department's Annual Green Card. Lottery you know extremely surreal before that ED spent a couple of years really trying to find a way to get here and I did all kinds of things I applied for work have played for schools and I wanted to come here and and and make music now. Jason Dara is nominated for his first grammy in my conversation with Kenyan singer Songwriter. Janus Dara tomorrow right here on the world until then from the Nanna Bill Harra studio at W. H. in Boston. I'm Marco Werman. Thanks thanks for being here. The world is a CO production of W. H. Boston the BBC World Service and PX uh.

Ukraine United States president Marco Werman BBC Australia Iran Prime Minister New Zealand Egypt Kiev Washington Japan Shinjiro Koizumi Russia Europe Amanda McGowan Dan Lana Lana New York
Trump corruption mars U.S. relationship with Ukraine

MSNBC Rachel Maddow (audio)

44:49 min | 1 year ago

Trump corruption mars U.S. relationship with Ukraine

"The show we had nine stern on MSNBC based all of you at home for joining us this hour. If you follow the news in the current political in you know by now that every day is like a kind of a treadmill of breaking stories. It just continues to accelerate in speed throughout the day by this time every evening. We're more or less sprinting just to keep up. It's like it's like a stress test. That's out of Control Dot. Please turn it off. Now and today is no different just in the last few hours. We've gotten brand new frankly astonishing reporting about a phone call between the president of the United States Donald Trump and the president of Ukraine a phone call that is reportedly at the center of a whistleblower complaint filed by a member of the intelligence community. This all all started a week ago when the chair of the House Intelligence Committee Adam Schiff revealed that the inspector general for the intelligence community had received some kind of a whistleblower missile blower complaint and Inspector General had deemed the complaint both credible and urgent but apparently Donald Trump's director of national intelligence was refusing to share it with Congress as required by law. Something Congressman Schiff said had never ever happened before. It was a couple of days ago that we got the first inkling of why the trump administration might be trying to keep the whistleblower complaint from Congress. The Washington Post was the first to report that the complaint concerned trump's communications with a foreign leader her including quote a promise that was regarded as so troubling that it prompted an official in the US intelligence community to file the complaint yesterday today it was reported that the whistle blower complaint had something to do with trump and Ukraine the intersection of Donald Trump and Ukraine raises. They won't won't of troubling implications which would get to a little later in the show but most immediately people's attention turned to a phone call trump had with the president of of Ukraine a couple of weeks before the whistleblower complaint was filed quote that call is already investigation by House Democrats who are examining whether trump and his attorney Rudy Giuliani sought to manipulate the Ukrainian government into helping trump's reelection campaign by digging up dirt on Democratic Presidential Front Front runner Joe Biden all while trump was holding up two hundred fifty million dollars in military aid to Ukraine after that news news broke last night. Rudy Giuliani may shall we say colorful appearance on CNN. He denied asking Ukrainian officials to investigate Joe Biden then like thirty seconds later. He admitted minute that he did. Giuliani claim that if trump himself had pressured Ukraine to investigate Joe Biden that would have been totally fine or certainly no worse than terrible things. Joe Biden has done anyway right. It's just a giant deep state media conspiracy but today Giuliani had apparently recovered enough from his shouting session twelve a coffee date with one of the Ukrainian businessman who's been helping him dig for dirt on Joe Biden in Ukraine Reuters spotted them where else at the trump hotel in Washington anyway sure enough the scenario so heavily heavily foreshadowed by Giuliani last night begin breaking across one news outlet after another after another today the Wall Street Journal had the first report quote president trump in a July phone call report repeatedly pressured the president of Ukraine Crane to investigate Joe Biden son urging Ukraine's leader about eight times to work with Rudy Giuliani on a probe that could hamper Mr Trump's potential twenty twenty opponent. The Washington Post reported that that phone call is indeed at the center of the whistleblower complaint that the trump administration is now withholding in violation of the law from Congress. The New York Times quickly matched that reporting going only so far as to describe that phone call all as part of the whistle blower complaint now for the record. NBC News is confirmed only that the whistleblower complaint concerns a call that trump had with eight foreign leader. It's also important to note that all reports today from the journal the post from the time they all say that in that call the president did not discuss the military aid to Ukraine that was being held up around that time so here's how the Times put it today. Quote questions have emerged about whether Mr trump's push for an inquiry into the Biden's Biden's was behind a weeks long. White House hold on military aid for Ukraine the United States suspended the military aid crane in early July. Mr Trump opted not discuss the aid in the July twenty five call with the president of Ukraine and Kiev did not learn of the suspension until August according to people familiar with the call so yes as the time says questions have emerged we know the White House held up military aid for Ukraine which is intended by Congress to help Ukraine Ukraine stand up to Russia. We now have multiple reports today that the US president pressured Ukraine to investigate a leading political rival on its own either one of those two factors will be a huge story about an American president the question now the question reporters are furiously digging into whether anything connect those two ideas now that said whether there is an explicit connection or not the effect and Ukraine. Maybe the same Democratic Senator Chris Murphy who met with the Ukrainian president a few few weeks ago told NBC's Andrew Mitchell Today Giuliani on behalf of the president has been very clear that he's trying to get the Ukrainians to meddle in the twenty twenty election now. There's Alinsky told me that he had no intention to do that but he was also very concerned about why the security aide was being cut off and even if there wasn't this explicit promise made that if you investigate Biden we'll give you your aid that certainly was the impression amongst many in in Ukraine who couldn't help but connect these demands they were getting from the president's political representatives to investigate his opponents and the sudden surprising cutoff of security and that scenario is scary and repugnant on its own terms no matter who the president is and no no matter which foreign country he's allegedly putting the screws on but you create is not just any country it is at the center of the political and geographical events that have defined find the trump presidency the events that gave us this presidency in the first place really and it feels like we can't understand the full potential scope of this story without without acknowledging the context here so go back for a moment to twenty fourteen. Ukraine was in chaos protests designed to force out Ukraine's Russia friendly autocratic leader Viktor Yanukovych who had gotten elected in the first place with the help of one Paul Manafort and perhaps with a bit of shady dealing those protests turned into a full on revolution Kovic who happened to be quite the autocrat and who was pushing the country closer to Russia and further from NATO was forced to to flee the country into the safety of ladder. Putin's arms in a covert ouster freaked Russia out so much. Putin decided to actually invade Ukraine rain. You create is the largest country in Europe. After Russia it has more than a thousand mile border with Russia and it sits right between Russia and Western Europe and right after protesters tossed out there. Putin allied President Putin sees part of Ukraine he seized Crimea on the Black Sea. It was the first time since World War Two that the borders of a country in Europe were changed by outside military force in response to Russia invading being and seizing Crimea and waging low grade war in eastern Ukraine ever since Western nations led by the United States under President Barack Obama took steps to punish Russia there were strict new sanctions against the Russian oil and gas industry for example that really hurt the country's fragile economy eventually scuttling what would have been very very lucrative deal with Exxon Mobil trump's for secretary of state REX Tillerson's old company the g eight countries threes decided that they would become the g seven instead kicking Russia and Putin out the US Congress passed a military aid package for Ukraine to help them resist. I Russian military aggression all of that happened after Russia invaded Ukraine in two thousand fourteen under President Obama and Vladimir Putin really really really really wanted those sanctions lifted. They were really painful really hurting him politically at home which is a problem because even if you prevent anyone else from actually running against you you can still only hold onto power for so long if your economy is in the tank and your people blame you for it now one of the things that we learned from open source reporting and then from the Miller report is just about every notable contact that the Russians made with the trump campaign and the trump transition was about sanctions the trump tower meeting between donald trump junior and the Kremlin connected Russian lawyer that was about Sanctions National Security Advisor Mike Flynn phone calls with the Russian ambassador which he pleaded guilty to lying to the FBI about those whereabouts sanctions a secret so-called Ukrainian peace plan cooked up by trump lawyer Michael Cohen and his partner in planning trump tower Moscow in planning trump tower Moscow guy named Felix Seder which they reportedly hand delivered to Michael Flynn and at the White House that peace plan was also basically just a plan to lift sanctions on Russia the mysterious meaning that happened between Eric Prints and the head of Russian Sovereign Wealth Fund in the Seychelle islands during the transition that was a meeting about Russian sanctions. Mike Flynn's Cockamamie plan that that he tried to push through the White House to try to build nuclear power plants all over the Mideast. It was also a plan. Wait for it to get rid of sanctions. Oh and who should pop up again. Paul Manafort now running Donald Trump's campaign after a years long career working for the Ukrainian political party that wanted wanted to bring Ukraine closer to Russia and bringing Ukraine closer to Russia is the key here. It is the flip upside of the sanctions coin. The sanctions on Russia are about Ukraine. If Ukraine stops fighting with Russia or if the United States decides that it no longer cares if Russia invaded Ukraine will that is the path that leads to the sanctions being dropped now just generally America's posture toward Ukraine is all about about Russia and Putin a strong independent well-supported well-funded Ukraine is a good partner standing up to Putin a Ukraine that does not not have good relations with the United States is what Putin would prefer all of that that is the necessary context for understanding what it means that at this whistleblower complaint scandal that has engulfed the White House may center on Trump's communications with Ukraine because this pressure that Donald Trump offers reportedly putting on Ukraine to dig up dirt on his political rivals it comes at the same time that he has appeared to be trying to reverse all of the measures. Where's that the United States took starting in two thousand fourteen to punish Russia for invading Ukraine we have seen trump repeatedly and insistently assistant argue that Russia should be let back into the g seven even though the reason they were kicked out in the first place was Ukraine and what Russia's doing to Ukraine hasn't changed at all? We saw trump block the delivery of that military aid. That's meant to help Russia to stand up to Russia and only released the aid under bipartisan congressional pressure. We've also seen trump cut the funding for projects to shore up European defenses ince's against Russia an initiative started by the Obama administration after the Crimea invasion trump is using that money for his border wall instead to the extent that Vladimir Putin wants things from Donald trump those things almost all in some way or another connect to Ukraine dropping sanctions getting back into the gate blocking money or weapons going to support Ukraine in its fight against Russia and so yes the whistleblower complaint in the intelligence community that trump is trump trying to get a foreign leader to do is domestic policy dirty work for him that is upsetting on its own terms but it can't be separated from the Foundational National Scandal of this presidency. DONALD TRUMP's relationship to Russia joining us now is Michael mcfaul former. US Ambassador to Russia under President President Obama and Mr Ambassador always great to talk with you. Thanks for having me drew. So can we go back because this Ukraine part like people think a lot about Russia and Donald trump seeming meaning fealty to or a strange relationship with Russia but can you talk a little bit about Russia's sort of obsession with undoing what President Obama Obama did with Europe together to sanction them for invading Crimea. Why thought you just did an excellent job that it was a great Con- contextual big paragraphs to put this in a bigger context and I think it's really important understand that absolutely the things that that President Obama and ongoing Merckel and our allies did are things that vitamer. Putin's been trying to roll back ever since it happened so it's sanctions support for NATO and support for Ukraine. Those are the three we know that they've been trying to lift sanctions through various ways. It's part of the reasons that he supported candidate candidate trump in two thousand sixteen. We know that they want to push back on that assistance to NATO and you rightly pointed out that President Trump himself with is now done that and then this third piece of support for Ukraine and I want to say I was one of the people that gave credit to the trump administration for not only sustaining military support for Ukraine but they even went further than our administration the administration I worked in they provided lethal assistance and I gave them credit for that and so that's why this is such an ironic tragic twist that the one thing that I think president trump did right vis-a-vis Russia. He is now using a trade for something for his personal game but the bigger context is important. All of these things are designed to punish and deter Russia and on every every single front president trump has been pulling back and can you draw a line. I mean is the recall that during the campaign during the convention in Cleveland the one change wjr that was made to the Republican platform. We didn't even add that that was also about Ukraine right and pulling back on the United States commitment to defend Ukraine you add add that to Donald Trump's seeming disdain and distaste for you mentioned Angela Merkel in the other members of NATO. Is this all one big. Rubik's cube that all Komo fits together in some way in your view yes. I'm glad you brought that up because I allegedly Paul Manafort was behind that change it was is then re the the the the to take out giving lethal assistance to Ukraine. The policy then overrode the president. I want to point that out that his policy team back in the very beginning they said no we gotta go forward with this but there has been attention from the very beginning between president trump and his national security team team with respect to Ukraine and with respect to Russia so here I see the president using one of those things as a chit to try to help him for something thing very personal and this is not I want to underscore not in America's national interest to have the president of the United States to be trading things for for his own personal gain and tells a little bit about it. We know other than the fact that he is a former stand up comedian this new leader in Ukraine which way does he fall on this meter of being closer at trying to closer to Russia or trying to closer to Europe. I mean how much leverage other than the money that was being held back for so long could donald trump have to actually get him if he were amenable to interfere in the election and hurt one of Donald Trump's opponents well without question the president's Alinsky leans towards Europe. leans towards democracy leans towards free markets by the way the things that Republicans used to always also support that is another another paradox here he also has a brand new parliament that was just elected and this is a moment a pivotal moment in Ukrainian history where they actually might break through to move this way and that's why when the president of the United States instead of embracing that instead of saying we support you one hundred percent we support your sovereignty says instead. I WanNa do this little trade with you by the way the little kinds of trades that we've been telling the Ukrainians to stop doing for years if not decades it it sends a very bad signal and even if the military assistance was not directly connected as a quid pro quo to investigate the vice president's son remember the United States is the biggest most important country in the free world and that in and of itself creates leverage vis-a-vis Presidents Accidents Alinsky he can't just dismiss a request from the president of the United States and I just think it's terrible tragedy for American National Interest Ah leaving out the legality and criminality. I'll leave that to people who are more expert than I but this is not the way to conduct. US foreign policy former US ambassador to Russia Michael mcfaul can't think of anybody would prefer to talk to about this to talk about this topic. Thank you so much really appreciate your time tonight. Sure thanks for having me. Thank you more on this next including looting what all the intrigue means for the Whistle Blower who came forward stay right there hi it's Katy Tur want to keep up with MSNBC while you're on the go subscribe to the Msnbc daily newsletter you'll get the best of what you've missed during this unprecedented era of news text MSNBC Z. Two six six eight six six to subscribe. If you had any doubt how high the stakes are for the whistle blower who sounded the alarm over the president and and reportedly his dealings with Ukraine well last night right here to put superfine frankly chilling point on it somewhere out there right now in America is a whistle blower from the intelligence community who has gone through channels and done things by the book and sought Whistle Blower Protection under law to alert Congress in good faith about a serious and urgent matter that reportedly involves involves the president his communication with foreign leaders some sort of promise that he has made to foreign leaders and potentially some shenanigans involving the nation of Ukraine bit by bit. The substance of the complaint seems to be coming to the surface while hour by hour. The trump administration appears to be fixing its crosshairs on the whistle blower. Now we still do not know anything about the identity of the whistle blower in this case but we do know that retaliation is a real concern for whistle blowers lowers. The Intelligence Committee Whistle or Protection Act is supposed to protect them from that and the acting director of national intelligence had his general counsel point out how seriously they take the obligation to protect lawful whistleblowers from retaliation promising the intelligence chief quote will not permit the complaint to be subject to any retaliation agent or adverse consequence so basically trust us. Nothing happened to the whistle blower. Everything is fine twist the Intelligence Community Inspector General Michael Atkinson basically said Yeah but hey trust us is not the usual way this goes the saying quote such personal assurance is not legally enforceable statutory corey protection previously available to whistle blowers in the complaints situation now reportedly the White House was consulted. The White House was consulted on how to handle this whistleblower complaint which is about the highest ranking executive in the White House. The president today said that even though he thinks he swears doesn't know the whistle blower is he quote. Here's that it's it quote highly partisan person. Someone's jeopardy's this whistleblower taken on can another branch of government and Congress offering protection in terms of the president reportedly leaning on Ukraine to investigate political rival does anything stand in his way former Justice Department spokesperson and Matt Gray Tabby with US tonight good to see joy so that is the question as I've been watching Adam Schiff on on on Rachel maddow's show and talking about it with other reporters. That's the question I keep having is cancer. Congress protect this person there is a law in place this supposed to protect them but but that is not being followed right now the law that supposed to take this complaint straight straight to Congress. So is there anyone in your view that actually can protect this person. No no not really I mean look if the if the president decides to retaliate against this whistle blower. It's very tough for Congress to do anything now. Look you can't just fire someone without cause in the federal government and the civil service isn't pre presumably. This is a civil service member. Although I suppose it could be a political pointy so you know the the the the the intelligence agency for whom this person works. I would have to have some reason to fire someone to but that's not the only way in which a whistleblower can be retaliated. They can be investigated. They can be demoted. They can be denied promotions. They can see their job. Prospects dry up so I think when you have the president attacked the whistle blower publicly the way he did today with attack the whistleblowers highly partisan it sends a signal signal throughout the bureaucracy of what he thinks about this person and you don't have to look far too far to the past to see how the bureaucracy has behaved when the president has attacked members inside of you look at the Justice Department where he attacked Andy McCabe and Pete Struck and Lisa Page and all those people are gone from the FBI now. One of them is potentially going to be prosecuted in the coming weeks so I think if I were the whistle blower I would be very concerned and I would hope that the DNA I would protect me if possible and hope that Congress would look out for me but ultimately. That's a very tough thing to ask of them yeah. I seem to remember someone. Losing losing their pension over Donald Trump's displeasure donald trump did of course attack this whistle blower highly partisan et cetera claiming he doesn't know who the person is also on q attack Congressman Adam Schiff number one. Do you have confidence that you know first of all this whole situation should not have been taken to the White House at least that's the protocol as I understand handed but it was do you trust that no one has given Donald Trump access to information about this whistleblower given up this person's identity and do you you quite frankly trust. William Bar to the instrument of retaliation and prosecute this person if their identity becomes no no I don't have any confidence in the in in any of those questions or needed those those issues being handled appropriately looked the DNA was not supposed to take this to the Justice Department or not supposed to take this to to to the the White House or if he did he at the end of the day he should follow the statute and transmitted the complaint to Congress within the seven days is the statute called for him to do he hasn't done that and I think thank you. You have to have real concerns about the fact that according to The Washington Washington Post the president's council is involved in this is looking at it. There's no reason the White House counsel should be involved in this. You have the Justice Department giving forth advice. I think we all know what bill bars I orders. First priority is we've seen the way he handled the Muller investigation. He's there to protect the president first and foremost I think that's what we how we should expect him to handle this look. If everything were being handled by the normal the way things were normally handled then you wouldn't have these concerns but when you start to see the process assists messed up when you see the process not being followed the way it's supposed to be and the way it's always been followed in the past then you have to look at the people involved and when you look at the people involved in this they're the same people we'll bill bar in the White House counsel who are obstructing Congress's investigations and other areas so you see a pattern here where they've obstructed Congressman Congress's investigations over and over about the Muller Report Morton another reports misconduct by the president and then you see him doing it here and and and there's a good reason why should have no faith either in why they're making the decisions that they are or that ultimately they will prevent any kind of retaliation by the president against the whistleblower and you a couple of tweets. I want to point out to you today from yourself. You said that if Donald Trump was promising government action in exchange for foreign government targeting a political opponent that is about as high crime and misdemeanor you can imagine on the impeachment front and you also wrote that he's is telling the world that he will abuse the levers of government in every possible way to get reelected looking the other way. Just encourages them to keep at it. Is it doubly troubling for you do that. He isn't being stopped. He seems to have so undermined or perhaps somebody corrupted the elements of government within the executive branch that no one is willing thing to stop him and the judicial branch is sort of stalled in pre impeachment period. It's deeply concerning would sorry yeah. It's deeply concerning. I think look any normal person would would look at the experience of the last few years the Mueller investigation and the outcome of that and one takeaway you would have would be I should not be seeking assistance from a foreign government. Donald Trump seems to have taken the opposite lesson lesson. He took his. I took I took a sister. I sought and received assistance from a foreign government in the last election. I tried to obstruct the investigation allegation into it and I got away with that. So why should I do it again and I think there's a pattern here. It's not you know if you think about the next fourteen months until Donald trump is up for re election we see him trying to abuse the levers of government here to benefit his campaign to help himself get reelected but it's not just here. Look at the reporting. The Washington Post is done over the last month mother so about the border wall where he's diverted money as we all know from the military to fund the Border Wall and then he reached down into the process and told people to ignore imminent domain laws and sees lad glad he's told people to ignore the federal contracting rules and he says look if you break the law apart in you and I think what you see as a pattern of president who is willing to use every level lever of government feels completely unconstrained by rules by norms and law and doesn't think there's anyone can stop him and so for that I if you think we still have over a year to go until the election. It is a very very dangerous time and there's really no oversight that can fix it. There's no judicial judicial means to stop him. The only only way is through impeachment and I think this report just puts puts the onus really front and center in front of the House of Representatives to take those articles up. He's even said that his Laura's view and said he can't be investigated type of government in the world operates that way. It's generally called an autocracy generally not what happens to the United States. I'm Matt Miller former Justice Department spokesperson. Thank you very much really appreciate your time. Thank you thank you coming up. We are warming up the poof machine because the twenty twenty democratic fields just got smaller. That's next for a lot of Democrats in two thousand twenty. There's been growing frustration with the party establishment specifically civically with the back and forth and seeming reluctance of Party leadership to outright back the impeachment of Donald Trump and at the same time there's a frustration that polls continue to show that the most establishment establishment candidate for the Democratic nomination former Vice President Joe Biden remains firmly in the lead well today those two stories sort of merged the leadership in the house also has made it clear in so many words that standing between them and impeaching this President or Conservative Democrats who won midterm elections in Trump district who are against impeaching Donald Trump and if you could imagine a sale that could be made those conservative. Democrats something that might actually move them on impeachment. You'd think think the obvious pick is national security and now we have a national security story that involves the potential next Democratic nominee Joe Biden the Wall Street. Journal is reporting that trump. I pushed the Ukrainian president to investigate Biden son eight times in just one July phone call. Meanwhile Biden is also the source of anxiety among younger Democrats Kratz Young Black Democrats and progressives across the board who feel that even when there's nothing to be found in the trump Giuliani dumpster dive for Ukraine base dirt on on the former vice president and his family Biden just might be the most target rich environment for trump in two thousand twenty give his long history and politics and that Democrats might not know how to prevent a repeat of two thousand sixteen with Biden playing the role of Hillary Clinton and her emails all of that unfolded today we also you got the news that there is one less person in the race for President New York City Mayor Bill De Blasios launched his campaign in May saying then he has saying that he has had trouble trouble getting enough traction to pick up speed in the race he did not manage to meet the poll on meet the polling or fundraising threshold to get into the last debate and he was not going to make get into the tober debate either something he acknowledged today we need officially ended his run for president out of the more than twenty candidates who initially threw their hats in the ring five five had already left the race before him and today he became the six to go so ready. You know we do it here three to one poof mayor. Bill de Blasio thanks for playing joining his screams out the air cheap public affairs officer at move on dot. ORG MSNBC kitchen get me started poof the way that they get to come in Philly and because I love Rachel because I get to do a flu saw a huge incentive. It's a bonus. It's really a vote so let's talk talk about. Both of these two. The first is that the impeachment fight is in a sense at least when I I don't know if you get the same feedback that it's kind of stalling momentum him for Democrats in two thousand twenty because a lot of the base of the party is just frustrated that isn't happening but if you just think about Nancy Pelosi he's got to count the votes and she just may not have the votes. National Security Repeals like the thing that could maybe get her closer yeah. I don't know how any lawmaker regardless of which side of the aisle that you sit in that you don't look at what happened this week with Donald trump clearly it seems to be as the stories of Wall Street Journal Washington Post New York Times continue to reveal every time we're we're every our learning something new that he called the Ukraine president to ask that President Eight Times The Wall Street Journal the Journal all to please help him investigate investigate Biden Hunter. I didn't to help him with his election right reelection basically a political opponent and I don't know how you don't hear that a look at that and I think we need to move forward with impeachment impeachment inquiry at this point be beyond that Peach -ment period impeachment hearings and that's where we should be but they're so stuck on procedure and the procedures not doing anything if anything I'm being very kind here. They're muddling the strategy strategy and the message and it's just not making sense and they're not acting and it's going to be it's infuriating for many people and they heard from their constituency back act during the the summer recess and so they are losing the argument and what they're doing is ineffective and we also have to put the blame on Republicans because Republicans are silent it and they are enabling him. Why do you think he continues to do this. Donald Trump. He continues to do this because what Democrats are doing. Oh not effective and Republicans are being silent. I mean you're from grassroots. Organization move on Dot Org one of the Oh gee really great grassroots organizations at some point would it make sense for Democrats to start turning into the conservative and moderate. Democrats are refusing to move on impeachment and say to them. You're a national security Democrat. You're the one who claims that. National Security is a top thing for you because that's sort of right-leaning positioning. Where are you on the president of the United States asking for a help out from a foreign great and I think that's I think that's what a lot of these candidates in these in these red right districts that are running for reelection that might have a general election right from from the other side or the senators in in these vulnerable democratic senators that are running or going after the vulnerable Republicans like that's the thing that they're going to think of Colorado and North Carolina and Maine those are the questions those candidates should be asking and I think they are making that contrast. Where's the Party of patriotism. Where's your patriotism. I thought you cared about national security and because they're being silent those Republicans than and that means they're not. They're not caring about the things that Republicans care about so. I think that's right. I think that's one way to go but also it's like we have to make sure Democrats attacked. There's a reason they were given at least in the house. The majority is to act in part is to hold the president accountable and they're just not doing well on the other part of us read and we were talking about him praising this estimate Wesley your time. I was really good but that's the other thing I hear out in the world that I don't know if you do as well that people are concerned that people like Joe Biden. He's he's one of the most likeable candidates on the democratic side but there's a lot there that could be real or not even real because you know we learned Senator Clinton Secretary Clinton. It doesn't matter if it isn't true as long as Donald Trump can paint his opponent as being just as bad and just as corrupt as him he levels out with them when he can use that to win again so one thing that we are learning very quickly and this is very much. A repeat of 2016 is Donald Trump is going to do anything to win rate. He's going to not follow the rules. She just doesn't care about the rule of law clearly he's calling the president of Ukraine to help him out with his race and and that's incredibly dangerous because he's going to do that with any candidate doesn't matter if it's biden whoever is the nominee. This is what Donald Trump is going to do. He's going to do what he did. In twenty-six team which is raised the negatives lives of his opponent so it is going to be a gutter lowest of the lows type of election that Donald Trump is going to run so what Democrats have to figure out artist. How do we how do they really compete against what is it? Is it the contrast you don't WanNa get down in the gutter with him but you have to make the contrast and show look. This is a president that doesn't care about our democracy. Look what he's doing. He's abusing his power. He's obstructing justice obstructing Congress and that's kind of the message that they're we're going to have to hammer yeah well. We'll see if they've learned anything twenty sixteen on how to respond back we'll see what happens to me jump here on or give the honorific and MSNBC contributor they thank you for your time tonight and much more ahead including trump's plan to get yet more billions for his border wall. Hurry stay with US tonight. The trump administration says it will soon be sending an undetermined number of US troops to Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates following cruise missile attack last week on Saudi oil facilities that the administration has blamed on Iran tonight announcement was made at a joint press conference by Secretary Sheriff Defense Mark S for and the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Mark Dunford and response to the king's request the president has approved the deployment of US forces which will be defensive in nature and primarily focused on air and missile defense we will also worked accelerate the delivery of military equipment to the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the to enhance their ability to defend themselves as for how many troops will be sent to the region the chairman of the joint the staff called it moderate deployment. I'll talk to send come over the weekend and we'll talk with shoddy partners and we'll work the details of deployment. We'll be able to share that with you next week. This is not specific now. We haven't decided on specific which broadly came as secretary it'll be capabilities enhance their air missile defense and I would say this point the moderate deployment feeling we'll have more details for you next week but but but not not really sure to details awesome thousands would be in Shea nut thousands not thousands but some unspecified number of American troops will now be going to Saudi Arabia yeah and the UAE tonight's news about troop deployments follows other news that we've gotten from the Department of Defense recently about the money the trump administration cut from the Pentagon John Budget in order to pay for the president's border wall with Mexico earlier this month the trump administration rated three point six billion dollars from the Pentagon's twenty nineteen military construction budget in order to pay for a wall. You know the one that Mexico was supposed to pay for a full half of the three point six billion dollars in Pentagon on money that the administration has taken to pay for trump's wall is being diverted for military projects ranging from upgrading military training facilities to improving schools on military military bases the Pentagon has already warned of dire consequences of this decision including the potentially hazardous living conditions for US troops and their families just as a result of this reallocated funding but now it turns out that the president is not done taking money from the military for his wall because as the Washington Post reports today trump officials are considering a plan to divert billions of dollars in additional funds for trump's border wall according to planning documents obtained by The Washington Post trump's wall require over eighteen billion dollars in funding the twenty twenty far more than the administration has publicly disclosed so how does the trump administration plan to make up for this new funding shortfall as the post reports of lawmakers refused to allocate more funding quote the administration in Ministration plans to dip into the Pentagon's construction budget for the second consecutive year to get another three point six billion dollars the post reports this plan was discussed at a White House meeting last week chaired by trump's son in law jared kushner quote. If the administration carries out the plan the White House will have defied fide Congress to divert total of seven point two billion dollars of Defense Department funds over two years money that would otherwise pay to repair or upgrade. US military installations the White House is proposing to double the funding cuts the US military bases both overseas and right here in the US but hey no one supports the military like Donald Trump Watch this space in August twenty eighteen Greta Thunberg decided she it was not going to go to school instead. She was going to sit outside the Swedish parliament and demand action on climate change so Greta hand painted a sign on a piece of old. Would it said school strike for climate off she went and it. I granted did not have a lot of support in this endeavour. Her parents tried to dissuade her. None of her classmates wanted to to join her. Even members of parliament who passed by in soccer sign said they agreed that are protests had merit but she really should not be playing hooky and to be honest honest. Greta was fairly used to being alone. She was painfully introverted fifteen year old at the time. She says nothing really was happening in my life. I have always been that girl in the back. Who Doesn't say anything. I thought I could make a difference because I was too small. Despite feeling that way Greta kept showing up at the Swedish parliament with our sign she showed up every day for three weeks in order to raise awareness about climate change and eventually she was not alone. People started joining her the movement spread so far and wide students staged mass demonstrations in Germany in Switzerland in Belgium January of this year. Greta was invited to speak at the world the Economic Forum in Davos Switzerland. She arrived at Davos with her sign and this message adults keep saying we we ought to the young people to give them hope. I don't want your hope. I don't want you to be hopeful. I wanted wanted to panic. I wanted to feel the fear I feel every day and then I want you to act. I want you to act as you you would in a crisis. I wanted to act as if the house was on fire because it is I want to act as if the house is on fire because it is that speech is part of what has catapulted Greta Thunberg onto the national stage ahead of the upcoming. UN Climate Summit being held in New York Thunberg decided to bring your message to this country a few weeks ago. She set sail from Europe in a solar-powered boat preferring referring to come here that way in order to lessen her carbon footprint in the last week. She's joined protests outside of the White House has testified before Congress and has met with former more President Barack Obama. It turns out that was all just a warm up for the main event today. Millions of kids and teens more than one hundred fifty countries joined into Greta to call and skipped school demand action on climate change in Germany more than one point four million took to the streets with over one hundred thousand of demonstrating before the Brandenburg Gate in Berlin hundreds of thousands marched in Australia making it one of the largest protests in that country's history in Mumbai Children's stood in the rain chanting oxygen is free because of trees and Tanzania marching bands cleared the way for school kids if they carried signs lines through the streets in Warsaw in Rio in Athens and in La the message was there is no planet b there were protests in tiny islands in the South Pacific as well as scientific outpost in Artika in this country kids took part in protests in all fifty states including New York City you were it's estimated that over a quarter of a million turned out gotta. Thunberg was right there at the center of it. All the young woman who wants thought that she was too small to change anything is changing the entire conversation moorhead tonight. Stay with us. The Western admits Lark is a medium sized stuck kind of bird. You can recognize it by its bright. Yellow Tummy a little bit thing that's going on in the shape of a black V. They're striking not just for their look but also there's sound the Audubon society describes it as a kind of a rich like jumble of grueling notes usually descending the scale the western meadow lock if you're not familiar with these little fellows oh you've never seen one in the wild well because a lot of them have gone missing and not just like the Western not just the western metal arc also the warblers and the thrashers and swallows and blackbirds according according to a brand new study from bird experts this week three billion birds have essentially disappeared from North America in the last five decades since nineteen seventy. The numbers of birds in the United States in Canada has declined but twenty nine percent which is a huge problem. Birds just look pretty and fly and I know not all of them fly but the point is they can actually be the lynchpin for the entire ecosystem common common birds control pests they pollinate flowers they spread seeds and help force girl when these disappeared the habitats they the bills start to fall apart researchers think the habitat loss and the wider use of pesticides are at least partly to blame for the three billion birds have disappeared from our corner of the globe because of the scale of this problem three billion birds going poop and not fun meadow show election poof like actual poof researchers say stopping apocalyptic decline would take a huge amount effort so yeah there's a new thing to worry about this is for the birds slider here tomorrow the meadow show weeknights at nine months during on MSNBC NBC HEY MSNBC listeners. It's me Chuck Rosenberg this week on the oath. I sit down with retired. Four Star Navy Admiral William mcraven Raven Bill mcraven was the commander of the United States Special Operations Command and the longest serving navy seal in American history. Send me to Iraq semi to Afghanistan Somalia submitted North Africa send me where the nation needs me just sending bill mcraven was involved in planning and implementing the most important operations in US special social forces history including the killing of Osama bin Laden and the capture of Saddam Hussein the fact of the matter. Is You have got to allow the guys on the ground to make the decisions when the time comes when the opportunity presents itself. Please join me for my conversation with retired. Navy Four Star Admiral William mcgrane available now wherever you get your podcasts.

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Explainer 190: Will Ukraine-gate be the end of Trump?

Monocle 24: The Foreign Desk

05:56 min | 11 months ago

Explainer 190: Will Ukraine-gate be the end of Trump?

"Concentrating on any individual. Donald Trump story is akin to pouring a glass of water with a fire hose. President trump on form is is capable of perpetrating. Six Times before lunch a gaffe scandal over buffoonery. which would define if not in the career of any politician? As he's very possibly the intention this ceaseless torrent of flat doodle lulls voters and or reporters into the temptation to zone out. It is worth however persisting we've what may come to be known as Ukraine Gate already. It has been triggered for the US House of Representatives to launch an impeachment inquiry into the president's excellent conduct every succeeding revelation has made trump's behavior more difficult to defend and or comprehend even for those establishment Republicans in the two willing to excuse. Trump's cereal indignities the president said today doesn't a racist bone in his body. I've been biocide for three. Over three straight years people showed their true selves in private often. I have never ever heard that man say anything untoward based on race on Tuesday this week. The transcripts swear released of interviews conducted by the Democrat led House Intelligence Committee with Kurt. Volker the president's former special representative for Ukraine negotiations and Gordon Sundlun the US ambassador to the EU and previously on probably not coincidentally a major trump. Dona this followed. Monday's release of interviews with Mario Van recently recalled. US Ambassador to Ukraine and Michael McKinley. A former adviser to secretary of state. Mike Pompeo the the fun part of the new releases will something of an adjustment which is to say a screeching one hundred eighty degree and break. You turn to the earlier testimony ambbassador bland. Some land had previously denied that there was any hint of quid pro quo in president. Trump's interactions with Ukraine specifically quickly a threat to withhold aid unless dirt could be furnished on trump's potential. Twenty twenty opponent. Former vice president Joe Biden in a new addendum Sunland has suddenly recalled telling an aide to Ukrainian president from all demand. Alinsky that such a trade off was likely what president trump had in mind. But let's be reasonable who among us has not inadvertently said No. That isn't what happened at all when what we meant to say was yes. That's totally what what happened. I was right there. A recap of how we got me help. I'm confused. Things somewhat. Ukraine has been a strangely recurring theme of trump's presidency. It was an association with Ukraine's former president. Viktor Yanukovych which embarrassed embarrassed. Trump's former campaign chairman Paul Manafort now resident of New York's Metropolitan Correctional Center Ukraine also appears to preoccupy trump's uh-huh excitable personal attorney Rudy Giuliani. Who is convinced that former vice president Joe Biden tried to steer Ukrainian investigators away from the Ukrainian mean gas company which had employed Biden some hunter when questioned on television? Giuliani angrily denied that he had asked Ukraine to investigate the Biden's and approximately ten seconds before chiefly admitting that he had asked Ukraine to investigate. The Biden's did ask Ukraine to look into JOE by. Of course I did. You just said you didn't shortly after. The people of Ukraine elected to their highest office a politically inexperienced celebrity. Who owed his prominence to clowning around on television? which always goes? Well trump cold president-elect Vladimir's Alinsky it swiftly emerged via at least one whistle blower that trump had indeed solicitor Bert on Joe Biden and suggested that US aid might be affected if unrolls forthcoming infamous trump and his outriders. They do have half appoint here. It is at least a little bit weird that a Ukrainian gas company should have offered a lucrative job to hunt to Biden who cv to that point went light on demonstrable expertise in the post Soviet energy sector. It is arguable. However the trump camp could have found a hitman better qualified to take down a spoiled silent trading shamelessly on his father's name than Donald Trump Junior? And when you're the father and your son's entire career is dependent on that they own you. Sean that's what it is but is this scandal. Likely to do trump any greater damage than these several zillion others. Well well possibly. It now seems beyond dispute that the President sub owned American foreign policy to his personal political interest. which is about as impeachable impeachable as he gets if this begins to disquiet noticeable numbers of voters? It might have the same effect on Republican senators and and bear in mind that yesterday Democrat was elected governor of Kentucky a state trump won in two thousand sixteen by thirty points the how would republicans like Democrats. Did it game is one. You can play a whole day of course but seriously it's not necessary to be especially really old to recall a time. When a Democrat perpetrating half such shenanigans would have seen Republicans furiously demanding that

Donald Trump Ukraine president trump Joe Biden US Ukraine Gate vice president Metropolitan Correctional Cent Rudy Giuliani Alinsky Mike Pompeo Viktor Yanukovych Kentucky House Intelligence Committee Kurt Mario Van Dona