165 w/Conor Friedersdorf Mayhem in Jersey City, Foreign Affairs, Gesture Politics
Warning this program typically features respectful nuance commentary. Strong language skier pop culture references in serious allegations new method of attack renews exciting installment of the fifth. Column podcast this is your weekly rhetorical assault on the cycle of people that make an occasionally ourselves. I'm Camile foster. I do various things of great consequence and significance that are completely indispensable dispensable at a place called free thing. The truth is it's rather hard to explain but I'm delighted to be here could mention a product once in a while. We just did this thing. Also you should just say free thank you say at a place called of it. It's like it's kind of fly by night. Operation mean some Connex. People haven't heard of it so if you you start acting like people have heard of it. They don't want to confuse them. All right. Who cares you know what I mean? Place called freeze very explicit. But I thank you gentlemen being helpful helpful to me this evening as most evenings generally trying to be helpful to me not tearing me down and not making me feel self conscious. Matt Welsh editor at large reason magazine. And so there I always have a compliment. I know the rid overpriced riots. Okay let's command just trying Michael Moynihan Vice News Building as well gentlemen great to see the both of you and of course our very good friend Anthony Fisher also in the building insider. I don't remember your new title. Knows okay. Whatever we'll get at the it's really hard? You keep switching it up on the challenges parading once a year. Oh He's business insider now known as insider CIDER. Yeah he's the one who made that transition for making time for me. I saw you Dick heads a couple nights ago. Yeah and we recorded. It was a bruce springsteen concert to just wasn't ending it was a real and and so we special edition for the Patriots Subscribers which is a good one and this is about as evergreen as it gets? Muniz is there is not a lot of on the day political content. We figure around the time of Christmas. Everyone's different places. We have some stuff for you guys. And here's is my question. Do we cut it into because it was long it was it was really. It was like the sorrow and the pity it was really. It was a very long one. Is the French we go for about two hours but this was to fifteen. That's fine then we can cut because it's not it's not one contiguous kids listened to Rogan. They listen to hardcore history. When I do my hardcore history? I clear out my day I schedule a bunch of cleaning that I need to do and I listened to a for five hours at all totally listening to three. Don't talk to me. I did you see the person who's who listened to our last episode and said this is the. This is the first time I've actually listened to it on regular speed. Those guys get. You weren't even that bad people isn't doing yes we soundwood. I totally normal but I want to introduce our guests door physicist of the Atlanta pleasure to have you here celebrated celebrated commentator. He's one of America's greatest wordsmiths. He's Greg Connor. I will say this you get who a shift from people sometimes too little bit lot of love. I would say that it's more love than appropriate. But he's there's there's little anger I hear there's a podcast of Socialists. That doesn't like me very listen to. It's just the rumor heard yes. They're not fans of yours. I think is this. The AH Trap House of Chapels yes I hear. I have not listened to them. I listen to not missing much. Oh there it is shots fired. I Love Uh thank you. They call you a neoliberal. What's your what's the go-to insult for? Connor future store. I don't really know what they call them. Yeah Yeah I'm curious. Actually neo-liberal coke chill chill. I can imagine different things but I'm not sure if they never reached out to talk to you know well they might. They might like you now because you did bring us a bottle of Venezuelan when you're in the sanctions advertently broken the sanctions. Let's consider it a peace gesture to trap house people people. It's so kind. Yeah if not for the sanctions Venezuela would be thriving opulent society with absolutely no problems zero crime paradise on Earth Product. Taylor did take. It was weird that the price changed three times registered which wheelbarrow full hybrid sad. Yes so we got here. That's great I didn't know that was due dude. We don't have anything it's GONNA show up well before you didn't lose weight whom shots fire win. I'm just saying there was a point. There is a tough period of my life a little bit and that's again if you subscribe to the Patriot I'll be doing a one man show just the troubles that Befell the past actually some deep stuff less than Oh Yeah we did we did. That was unexpected when heavy and and then afterwards I was like screw that up. Yeah Matt Matt said Yes you did. You said I didn't and I went and listened to it immediately after to make sure I didn't but but if you subscribe you're here we're talking about but I was a little nervous about that so but you should subscribe and we. We usually talk about this at the end of the podcast which she's like bad business every way so we do have a patron and you'll know how these things operate but they tear system and depending on what you see how this works you get more and better better stuff in by the way. This is an important point. I get an email. I think. Maybe I don't know if we got us on on the Patriot and sort of message. Thing or to address is dot com slash V. 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The listener generated content a listener created for us a sort of greatest hits super. Cut A gate fold. Double Record of rants of rants and over. An hour isn't isn't it. It's an hour and a half only. This is only through episode fifty. There's an angry I fifty wasn't that this is a really good stuff. Most most of it is joyous and wonderful. It was like being trapped in a in a wonderful time machine. I mean it's all a little embarrassing but it's spectacular as well. Was that when ah predicting at the time. I don't know if there are any predictions in there. You can listen to that thing and isolation not know what period of time we're talking about necessarily it's really good. Yeah but I wonder if it's wonderful it stands up and a lot of it is matt. Yeah Madison Standout superstar. So if you hate Matt Welsh. Don't listen to stop listening to this beacon. Hey your enemies when you describe it as an album I thought it was a super credible Camille singing. It is that something you would be interested in. I'm holding out for the Patriots. Karaoke outing when that level will be introduced. But that's when I personally it won't be won't be Karaoke you. I'm going to have a full band. I'd just want you to Camille Foster Orchestra. The it's going to be a mazes spoken word orange. His Song Baby. Yeah there's there's a suggestion that we do a Camille singing all all sorts of things but we do like the user generated content provided. You're not putting it together to make us look bad. Yeah 'cause we will compare this rhetorical Korea no deep fakes. We probably get into it. There's plenty of stuff going on. I think tomorrow we're recording this on a Tuesday evening. This is the night before the Democrats in the House are slated the vote on the impeachment Unless they've delayed it for some reason which I suspect they probably won't. We should probably vote a little bit of attention to that. We talked about it a lot but we haven't talked about it with Connor who's written about it recently and may have some interesting things to say about that but there's also plenty of stuff going on and plenty of other things that you have been writing thing about recently in thinking about that I think are of interest to us But perhaps we begin with this really outrageous Shooting that took place in Jersey City. Not In most murder scenes aren't outrageous in some way shape or form but it is not every day that a neighboring city to New York City a Finds itself in the midst of shootout between assailants and police officers where hundreds of rounds are fired in the city and it sounds like a war zone if you've actually listened to the audio and seen the video by standards out there police officers going in and in a line to try and in disentangle this situation And what's what's curious about. The situation is the degree to which the story really hasn't received the coverage that you might expect in other circumstances and it's almost certainly true that a lot of mass shootings probably end up getting more coverage than you might expect relative to the risks associated with this thing happening but I think it's noteworthy ready when certain shooting seemed to inspire a lot of conversation and other shootings seemed to not inspire a lot of conversation and in this particular case case to remind folks because again this is only received so much coverage was a man woman who had been in some sort of long-term relationship. A lot of the details are still Coming out the investigation is being completed. A both of them seem to be affiliated with black nationalists as the narrative what if is sort of laid out they killed an uber driver or some sort of Taxi driver early in the morning there was a police officer who was killed. Two apparently approached a a moving truck that they'd been living out of during the day And later on in the day they approached a convenience store that was owned and operated by It seems some Jewish people in the community and by the end of the day they killed. I believe it's four or five. People wounded one one of them being a police officer of wounded several other police officers and again we're responsible for inciting this incredible scene But there's a lot of of like peculiar stuff that seems like it's worth talking about and I think the context here being that. This isn't the first time that someone who has has had some sort of relationship with black nationalist stuff has been responsible for a mass shooting in the last like five or six years. We've seen several of them actually. And it's not as though there aren't some prominent black nationalist leaders who have pretty substantial followings. Some black nationalist leaders can get ten fifteen thousand people people into a stadium and black nationalist leaders also enjoy a lot of support. I should say at least They seem to get a lot of respect back from prominent black celebrities. They're interesting dynamics here. That might be worth talking about the specter of antisemitism some rather disturbing video. CEO of people who were at the scene of the shooting essentially watching what had happened in some cases but also just being there hours after everything sort sort of calm down and saying explicitly antisemitic things at the scene of the crime One Guy I remember it was just like this rather disturbing moment where he walks up to someone who's holding a camera presumably thinking that he's Jewish and saying something along the lines of are those people in there that got killed. Well that's good which which is just like I said I don't know what to do with that but at any rate it seems like this sort of thing that might spark national conversation. And instead I've seen in some coverage of it but I haven't seen the sort of deep introspective soul searching coverage associated with this and that's that's that's the difference right. I mean it's not to say that there hasn't been coverage of course has been coverage and the reason we know about it is because there's been coverage and of course the video that was out there that eat Good God I mean it was. It was like Raka. I mean this was not a gun battle that you see between cops emptying a magazine and then reloading their magazine. I Mrs just like it sounds like a war zone. It sounds pretty brutal and the thing about it is that these people were attacked. The second was it was a kosher store. Hate to be right about these things but you recall predicted this. I am very specific. I guarantee you're going to be black Hebrew Israelites. Because there were violent very violent group to be fair every time you see a violent crime and you send me a text that says hey a better to black it is always them. Those people opposite is I'm like no I'm kidding Israelites. Part of the whole Covington teenagers. Yes yes yes. I got a lot more coverage Ashley soul-searching to this that they did get some soul-searching Sixteen nineteen year old kid or something involved but the thing that I find very curious about this is that these are people targeted specifically because they're Jewish killed killed because they're Jewish targeted. You know we see people as criminals discussing video. It's been tweeted a number of times people afterwards words saying some pretty hideous things and you know. It's an edited video but when people say it's an edited video. It's like there's certain things that like. There's really no other context for that is is that like. You're not quoting anyone and also because you know video you have ran if you're out there for ten hours and you know people say it is anti-semitic things like you're not gonna play the whole taste so I've seen this. It's been edited so be careful. Be careful but it was pretty angry stuff blaming the victims and it was explicitly antisemitic in doing so. And you know thinking about this and the lack of a so-called national conversation but any appears to be any real conversation about the motives here is that this is also a group that is targeted more regularly than anybody else particularly. We have something approaching. Doing what would be a big problems as an epidemic but a big problem here New York City And particularly in my neighborhood. which is you know? A number of people being hit beaten up often guy with the brick the other day. And it's usually with with some anti Semitic slurs that go along with. It is a lot of this stuff out there so what was surprising to me was. There's no conversation at all about for instance as video. Is that if you have someone who's motivated by racial hatred and they go shooting something up in such a dramatic fashion with an arsenal as if they were you know. I think he would have got attention if they're killing Jews and they were dressed up in an SS uniform that would change. The calculation doesn't teach calculation for the people whose relatives start. They died right. But it's it's for some reason and I think we've probably guessed the reason but also by the way I just put it backtrack slightly the other. There's other shooting that happened right before. That's getting attention was a Saudi national that it's shut up and who also was anti Semitic and was posting not just to Israel things but anti Semitic stuff and Like extremist stuff online and. That happens like a week and a half before so we've actually had to anti Semitic mass shootings in. They're not it's not. We're not not sitting here going. Oh this is a crisis. I do believe that we have a for for for a long time. Overlooked the emergence of white nationalist analyst terrorism. And we've seen a disturbing amount of it recently and that should be paid attention to and so people who say well you know if D. H. S. is looking into these things. They're they're looking into these things because they just don't like conservative. Whatever that's nonsense and there we should be looking into this stuff and and more than we have in the past? There's a lot of it out there but right right now is that you know one would assume that to anti Semitic shootings in a row is a bit of a problem. But here's the problem. Here's the thing that I found amazing Camille and our communicating about this today. He said there's a video Out there saying these things after after the shit. I can't find it so I wouldn't found it right and in the process of finding I found one article one article about it which was on North Jersey or is he dot com and identifies the Bergen record or something or it's just North Jersey Dot Com. But I'm going to read you some selected. There's no quotes. This is about that video there. No quotes in the piece from the video. None these people saying these Jews are this. They're taking over there interlopers. It's always the same narrative read. Remember the whole thing in the eighties and nineties Korangi interlopers. They're coming to our community. Reach you if you selections from this and this is not. I'm not misrepresenting. His piece at all. This is representative piece. The Post this is about somebody on the surface on the surface intense highlight hatred that might exist in the neighbor might exist in the member but it mimics a broader national and global pattern of disseminating images to foment dissension in a community still reeling from a horrific incident. That's one now this guy is worse. There's a purpose behind sharing that. This is the video making the decision to share it with those. This is a quote from an expert. I don't know expert is making the decision share with those comments and having others pass it around to make it go viral. It's fitting into a larger narrative. Okay right and here's my favorite this this. There's a lot of the views voiced by those standing on the sidewalk in Jersey City. Video might not be considered extreme. I don't know it's literally like hateful anti Semitic. The reason for disseminating in this context could be driven by extreme political. Views said Penny. This is a expert. They've they've interviewed a few and it says the my video such as these are a form of propaganda this literally no quotes from this video. Yeah which is one of the more disturbing videos. I've seen a long time. It has not been widely disseminated hasn't been discussed on. MSNBC and Fox and CNN and the one piece that you can find that finally say well this is just propaganda because they're trying to foment dissension in the no never trying to point out is the presumed thay from that. They are the sort of you know. Nameless people on twitter who who are no better than this sort of Richard. Spencer's of the world so Barry Wise. WHO's a friend of ours tweeted something today from Jt? A The Jewish newswires Telegraph Agency of a woman. In Uh in. Who's on the school board? I believe and Jersey City responding to somebody on facebook and say why is nobody talking about how these Jewish brutes. It's Jewish roots. have been coming into our neighborhood and buying up all this blah blah blah and. This is a lot of kind of this. Big Abreu the shoulder. I don't think the level of Britishness was actually discussed. But I mean it's so crazy to me that this stuff is out there and that you know I'm happy that people have significant conversations after somebody drives over somebody else in a like a murder in Charlottesville Virginia Taylor Hamas yeah but he goes home and Senate and Charlottesville and that person's going to be in prison for life but you know it's just weird the conversation that we're having this don't seem to exist and maybe I'm missing them to me the difference this between Charlottesville and this is that something like Charlottesville cuts in a clear direction. You can say The out group that I'm aligned against perpetrated this atrocity and so you know comment and you have antisemitism on the left and the right which makes it harder for either to kind of seize on any given instance as a casual to beat the other side but you can think back to the Las Vegas shooting right. The biggest mass shooting in American history. That people seem to stop talking about Out Very quickly and with no particular explanation of what even happened. And it's just another instance where because there was no political murder no political before orb perpetrator and use it to generate outrage among your followers to beat the other side and I think that apiece is a big part of why we pay attention to mass shootings. The only the only time the victim seem to matter when it's kids when something like What was the school shooting Some years ago and the kids are young enough then it seems to Be placed in a story about gun control troll but I wonder where are the kids from park land who were All the time in the media maybe they spoke out about the shooting and gun control But it's interesting how As far as press coverage goes. It's the biggest thing in the world for a little while and then just disappeared from the map. I think you're right about that in this one did have his elements where where There there was a political motive. They were using. They both had air fifteen. which is always handy when you're having this conversation to But I think that the conversation and is that you don't want to have a conversation about these radical black nationalist groups that I don't believe are very significant and I mean there's there's this happens I don't believe it's a it's a nationwide problem but I think that antisemitism in general is is because all you you have to do is look at these tables and we've had conversations on this podcast before but how. We tally hate crimes. And how unreliable they are in so many ways but you know what we have have. We know that antisemitism is always leading justin fastest growing. Yeah Yeah and this is what two percent of the population point. Eight percent of the advocate get like forty. Thirty percent of the transition also strangled kind of muffled Better A conversation about it from the cops and the mayor I I weren't I mean. I think that we were texting each other. Like it's weird that we don't know anything about the shooter's here for a long time for something right out there in public. It'd be one thing if it was the norm for there to be this appropriate reluctance to divulge too many details about the shooting too early. Which I'm finding one thing if it was sort of standard operating procedure for journalists to did not engage in too much speculation? Really WanNa wait to let the facts. Come out it's just there've been so many other circumstances where that hasn't been the case And quite frankly I mean we mentioned Charlottesville earlier and I think the the degree to which that the real time sort of wish casting in some respects and and presuming presuming About things is actually kind of calcified and created a narrative about those events which we don't have pack all of that now but I could contrast yes this with something a bit more recent like the tree of life shooting in Pittsburgh where in fact we did talk about this for a while. And we did have a protracted conversation about sort of what this means for America when something like this can happen something that is obviously anti Semitic in the way that this really does appear to be. The police at this early on. Weren't saying much much about that. They have said that this does appear to be the case. There was some letter That was left by the shooter's which I don't know that we have the details. We don't have we don't we. Don't I have a diesel on either. I don't know why you wouldn't divulge sort of detail at this point unless prats you never plan to because you don't want to inspire someone but again here sure it's unusual but what what I what. I'm working my way around to saying a very drawn out. Attractively I apologize. Sometimes I do that. is I'm not sure what I want is for there to be hyperventilating. Every single time we have a shooting like this and that every shooting like like this needs to spark a national conversation but the incidents where it does spark a national conversation and where it doesn't seem important on Sierra particular attributes of these events that sparked the national conversation and other attributes that squelch it completely. It's interesting to me that there's not even a gun control conversation. After after one hundred plus rounds are let off his five hundred down the street from New York City which is journalistic capital of the country. There Ariss the world here. Why aren't they across a fifteen minute conversation? Fifteen minute ride in the past the North Hollywood bank heist in the nineties indies which was live on television and trillion? Bullets were fired More bullets that case it took longer but that like directly led to the assault weapons a ban. I mean people were like Jesus Christ. These people have incredible firepower. We've gotTa do you got to change the calculus of it and this is a firefight that like it wasn't that is as extreme but it was like that and you're right but I think also we should get We're in the middle of a time when the news is about impeachment. You know like this. Were recording this on Tuesday. I think today was it. The the House and the president decided to to spend one point four trillion dollars until September twenty twenty. Yeah how much coverage spending bill. How much much coverage has that received by the? I personally. Don't care about that. Nobody nobody ever covered by partisan consensus. That spending doesn't matter but people did cover this ad Ad Nauseam between January twenty eleven and the beginning of two thousand fourteen. That was what politics in America were about. Those budget fights looming shutdown. Yeah but they're also fights they were conflicts. There are bad guys. I could root for against rand. Paul like four or against Barack Obama Now they're not really fighting over that they're fighting over. Impeachment in so impeachment becomes the Squirrel and the and the media is the dog and they go towards the conflict is and they ignore the other stuff and there's been been a lot of big news there and that just gets gets drowned out by just one final point on this is that is that look. There's nothing surprising about it. in. It's not even point. which if you follow politics politics politics that you don't need to even there's no surprise right? Republicans care about spending until they don't like. Oh my God that box again. That's that's we all just root for our tribe our side and you know if it if it fits narrative and that's just the way it is and it will always be but it is is in a in cases like this worth pointing out particularly with shootings Because there's such a moral imperative in so many arguments about shootings and I. I would say that like you. You know I just you know. The the tree of life was was worse. But I don't think that's why I got the attention that covers this. I think that when you have an opportunity to beat up your political opponents and you have an opportunity to to to to pin this on you know president trump or you know so They're neo-nazis right and he's and he's given sucker into neo Nazis in Charlottesville and you can go down that line right and you can probably make a fairly reasonable okay so in some of the cases. But that's if you don't have that and that's you know that's your fuel you're gonNA leave it alone. You're going to kind of page and the Black Hebrew guys guys just so weird weird to their weird and Nazis a weird but as I said a moment ago I don't I don't think threat inflation. When is the appropriate course? Ever think there's something to be said for black nationalists actually having a fair amount of cultural troll currency within particular communities and for someone like Farrakhan to actually have friendly relationships with really really prominent hip hop artists and figures in the community and to have people who sort of defend him and rationalize away the most disgusting discussing a disturbing things that he says and quite frankly and now. I'm getting into something a bit. More speculative the story about the the Jersey Z.. City official whose referring to Jewish roots. That was referenced earlier. The subtext there is this person asked residents if they are brave enough to explore the shooter's message. Yeah Eh and this is something that I like. See like actually pretty routinely in connection with these particular kinds of shootings. I was looking at the youtube page page of the Baton Rouge shooter from a couple of years ago like into this. I mean this is. This is what I do when I'm preparing for the show and I was looking at the comments. It's like the most recent comments and it's not hard. I mean some people troll on the Internet. I'd have to go back and take a look to see. Just how many of these profiles are legitimate. But I wasn't surprised I find people who said Yeah. There's a lot of truth in what he's saying. You know recipes brought us a real one he was. He was trying his best to to sort of do something about this real problem. I don't want us to threaten inflation but sometimes I wish we would talk more about people who are perhaps inflating threats and inflaming tensions in creating over concern around some of these issues if you know my perspective on police involved. Shootings is correct and we overstate the degree. To which black people are at unique risk. Then talking about it as though there is an existential threat to black life posed by the police. Ace is perhaps the kind of hysterical over concern that might promote people to do things that they might not otherwise do and if we never have the conversation about that if when events like this happen. We're unwilling to do the kind of introspection that we might do around other shootings Then it seems it's like we're being a little less than serious about the risks that we face and maybe that's wrong. Maybe the truth here. Is that what you actually had is is a couple who the woman had lost her job and they had lost their home and they were living out of a truck and they were perhaps disconnected from any other community and they both kind of got lost in one another and being completely disconnected from the world. We're able to be radicalized by a bizarre religious vote set of beliefs that generally doesn't turn everyone into a mass shooter comes into contact with the but sometimes does and what we really need to take away from. This is that we need to do a better job of of reaching out to the people who are close to us who might be sort of prone to do something crazy and violent left alone and in isolation maybe that's the lesson and and that's the conversation that we ought to be having. Maybe that's more helpful than focusing on the political affiliation of someone does something ridiculous considering most people who have these political affiliations or even religious affiliations. Don't do accident in better to your point it's not terribly different. When you see people on the Louisiana shooters youtube page saying you know like hey? This guy's got a point. I think I it's not too different from what happened after nine eleven. I mean there's there's you know within minutes of the celebrations that were happening in New Jersey. Maybe that's why they responded. I know it is honestly honestly. Yeah I didn't mean to be but honestly that sort of that avalanche of Root Causes Theory that you know had we not done x and Y. They would not have done this to us you know. Why do they hate us? which was a question that was never known? Ask the question. Why do I hate them? After after nine eleven it was always a one way street. Why do they hate us? And clearly. We've done something to deserve this and that is always a question that that that does does not provide satisfying answers and I think it was fairly recently. I saw something. Take it up for for next time. I think was a member of Isis who had some manifesto and said guys. It's not your foreign policy. We just don't we don't like the way you live like it's like you're infidels. It doesn't matter what you do like you can stay out of Israel. You could do all this stuff. It doesn't matter we don't care this is our problem with you and it's not because it applies these kind of rational thought processes to people who sometimes aren't very rational. Well I mean I think some people get radicalized because now they're village got bombed and it's not it's certainly big calculation no foreign policy that got us there they they saw the bud end got pissed. Yeah I mean it also doesn't mean that you shouldn't have bombed the village and I'm not saying that that in particular case if you're saying that you know I don't think anybody has a terrible amount of sympathy of people in Berlin in nineteen forty five commenced blowing up. They shouldn't have bomb them as well. Yeah we should've love. And that's what happened and we got rid of Nazis that way and you know it's I'm just saying that. Nothing of any specific specific in the Middle East. You're saying it's not always a calculation that if one bombs Tom One deserves the response because there are a lot of cases in which the that is justified and the response is not justified in the way they respond is not justified bovine. It's not as if they say well. You know you have planes. And we don't so we'RE GONNA kill babies and the pizza shop that's not a calculation that makes a hell of a lot of sense to me but you there is always. There's always a chorus of people in that woman by the way that can meals quoting who is a and the school board of education or something like this. The board said this Mr Anderson and Graham went directly to the Kosher supermarket. I believe they knew they would come out and bodybags. What is the the message they were sending? Are we brave enough to explore the answer to their message. Are we brave enough to stop the assault on the black communities of America and it's basically basically and by the way she she signs she signs it. I as a private citizen not as a member of the Jersey City Board of Education. Yeah yeah separate. The two people good citizens of New Jersey. If you have any sense whatsoever do something about that. And that's that's not. That's it's Kinda crazy like people fleeing high rents in New York City and moving to New Jersey or various parts of Brooklyn that have been less than savory in some respects vex for a long time. They're not a threat to the black residents. They're they're actually the opposite of a threat to the black residents there generally speaking they're not bringing like crime an awfulness with them. It's just not a thing. Yeah well the trend in the other direction. It's yeah I mean I'm not GonNa say anything about that. It's just that I don't know anything beyond that. That is I think this is all right. Yeah well we veered into wards We veered into foreign policy a little bit and Connor. I know In the last couple of weeks are always writing good and interesting things last week. I I believe in response to the Afghanistan papers. Almost you talked about last week as well. You are a piece about the doves being right which presumably means that you were in fact wrong and then that presumably thank you divulged as much in the peace and I regret it being frame? I'm that way a little bit because it made. It seem as if I was making a coherent case for war when in fact I was twenty one year old studying abroad in Spain and not publicly speaking are thinking thinking much about any of this but I did think like most Americans did that We probably should respond to nine eleven by taking out the Taliban and probably not as most Americans as well and I think it was in hindsight the wrong call not because there's no theoretical war. That could have been much better. I I've gotten some pushback that says well you know it was the occupation. That was the problem we should have just gone in and and taking out Bin Laden and been done with it. I think it's important to recognize that that is not in fact what happened. And that given the president at the time and the foreign policy team at the time you go to war with the president and the foreign policy team that you have and I don't trust the United States foreign policy establishment to get out of the war when it is time to And the costs of staying decades too long are just so tremendous that I think that there should be a pretty big presumption option against going in in the first place Because you're never going to get the best version of the war and and so it should probably be close to something that's that's a last resort or a very discrete You know I can be sympathetic to their these people in Rwanda with machetes. And they're about to kill this other group of people and maybe we should have done something about that. I don't know it's not to say that there aren't tricky cases and one more thing I'll say is that a lot of a lot of the kind of Angry emails that I got after I wrote that piece of now. You're saying that it was a big mistake. If you're saying well. Didn't you study history. Didn't you study the Vietnam War again. In twenty one I hadn't particularly you know studied doing more like everyone in high school but but the Gulf War was the context That I I grew up with watching on CNN watching this relatively successful intervention that Was Big and scary and frightening at eleven years old. Or whatever I was and then seem to wrap wrap up. Relatively quickly with a few casualties seem to kick this bad guy. Out of this country he invaded and seemed to have much of the world support. And so I think that was the context for a lot of people in two thousand one. Not The quagmire Vietnam. But George H W Bush and Norman Schwarzkopf in the Gulf War and also Yugoslavia. Right where are you can bomb Milosevic negotiating table really quick after four years of Europeans. Just absolutely dithering making everything terrible That change the calculus oculus really in a hurry in nineteen ninety five and then similarly although it took longer and Kosovo just in terms of there wasn't a lot of American casualties associated with it took about seventy thirty eight days or something but it didn't require a lot from America the change the calculus on the ground. And so you come in and think that it's fine. I I wonder how quick footnote just add quickly is that remember that of course the last war The last military conflict of any size that America was involved in was that and it was on behalf of the Muslim population of it was essentially a pro Muslim more. Yeah which is something that you Christopher Hitchens and nobody else members has it remember for the most part. I mean my generation of Weirdo Central European type people Do because we lived there at the time But yeah it's been largely largely forgotten war for Oil Kinda crap except now don't trump actually wants to have a war for like feel going to keep the oil to keep the oil somehow and but I wonder a connor if if that president or any president would have said okay look. They harbored this group of people on purpose. Who hit us on purpose in an active war? terrible terrible grievous. ACT OF WAR. They have lost the right to have their regime eamon power. We're going to make them learn that lesson by force and then once we do that we're going to get the hell out right so It was what December it was a seven-week war where we lost. I think three people five people. It was like a really all almost nobody died in that war if they had stated that as the goal hole and then acted on that goal by all right. Sorry you're dead but were getting out of here. Is that a war that you would support. If that was the goal I mean with same people in charge no because I don't believe that the same people would would do it that way. Maybe with a different group of people in charge. I I suppose I think one person who deserves credit here is Barbara Lee for all the all the many things that I disagree with her about she was the one person who looked at the after they passed right after September eleventh had. Wow this is really broad This seems to lend itself to a kind of extended engagement abroad that we ought to think very carefully Lee bow and actually went and read. All of the letters are not all of them but many of the letters that people sent her that her Can Seem at Mills College in Oakland and It's an interesting window into anti war sentiment at the time because the letters are lot more reasonable and persuasive than the signs as you see People carrying on the street You know I think that antiwar protesters at the time Deserve credit for getting getting the big question right but I don't think it was very persuasive to most Americans to have a sign saying. Don't start this racist war for example I don't think it resonated with most people all that it was racism that was the motivating striking back against this force that had knocked down the twin towers in this regime that was harboring them. Ah last year is I wanted to write. The piece was that we're in this moment of populists shaking their fists at elites and saying You're getting into all of these foreign wars. And we need trump to be the anti war candidate Hillary Clinton and I'm not unsympathetic to the critique of Hillary Clinton to the critique of the foreign policy establishment and at the same time many of these right-leaning populists were Gung Ho on both of these wars. People like rush limbaugh NBA like the Claremont Institute. Now aligning itself with an anti interventionist foreign policy as if it was the pointy headed Lisa Long. It's like no. You're much more likely to be against these. These wars if you were a lefty academic or if you were a member of the permanent deep state and the State Department right. I don't think Victor Davis Hanson was leading the antiwar. Were exactly. That's not what our and so I think it is important for Americans who were tired of these wars to think back and realize Both Afghanistan and Iraq had been Jordi support at the time that they were launched. And you can say oh. The administration lied about Iraq. Or whatever but I think there is a civic responsibility to not just cast blame the military industrial complex. Maybe you can blame them for staying in so long But these were popular the wars and I remain convinced that the kind of nationalist coalition that Donald Trump has put together that tends to bring in Jingo synthroid. Teheran's is always going to be more prone to going to war in a knee-jerk way in response to some provocation than other possible coalitions. And you know there's no coalition. Obviously that is before us. That just isn't going to go to war reliably But I do fear what the trump coalition would do you know especially given trump himself. You can go back and watch youtube videos of him saying that we should go into Libya. he's a lot more hawkish than he makes himself out to me now shocking. Yeah I mean it's you don't need to whether mansion he's a it depends doesn't really depend on the actual situation. It depends on the mood of the country and what he thinks. He's going to get out of it the one I think that most of that is right. I only thing I push back on. Is that You know I said this before is that I think Barbara early is to be commended. In the same way the Maoist international movement is to be condemned mistakenly right Barbara Lee. There's nothing you could do that. That would have agreed with. I mean she's I think the last foreign policy thing I remember. Barbara leaking stand on was Grenada and being quite a friend of Maurice Bishop and the new jewel movement. But you know I mean this is this is a women that new records drop. It's yeah it's great run. The new jewels But it is like she's a Castro Pal. She's like a- of that ilk. I don't think it's like I think there's a lot of people and yeah I don't say this just because of where we are with but sort of Justin Amash of the world who think this thing through and say. Here's why I Barbara Lynn is somebody who is you know the Marx Brothers version of American foreign policy of whatever it is. I'm against it and it could be ratting. Wealth out the different administration. I should've maybe. There is value in being dumb Lee. Right there's maybe some baby we need to have a X.. Amount of Tulsi Gabbard in the mix who are gonNA do crazy shit like go to Syria which is not I. Don't I can't invent Owais there. That was a good trip Other people can disagree. Maybe Camille disagree but I I don't I don't know I don't think it's quite fair to call her dumbly right. I take your point about out Other things that she's done the line of this and and You know you can say that A broken clock is right twice At the same time she was pretty directly critical of the way that the math was more expensive than people were making it out to be and the way that it would be used for all sorts of conflicts conflicts that had nothing to do with al Qaeda and Osama bin Laden and it has been used in that way for for years and years and years and they're was was just no the prospect of getting rid of it for so long and so she was Precisely right about that. Even a for sort of larger foreign policy critique might have been wrong. That's an issue that our our friend Eli Lake wrote a great piece of reason about You know like seven years ago. September fourteenth country we think about September eleventh actually September fourteenth is the day of the UMF. And I think some of the better congress critters and there's not many of them have been focusing on that night in fact a not a small number of the Democratic presidential candidates including Buddha judge including Elizabeth Warren. They have all pointed out. This is bad. We've got to get rid of it we've got to start over and And reauthorize these things were not authorized. These things sunset spoke there was a lot is worth entertaining. An open ended war with neither an exit strategy nor a focus target. I mean she was exactly right. Yeah I think I think there was a focus. Targeted was but there is no. We're going to depose the Taliban screwed. That's an expanded after that pretty considerably. But she's absolutely right in that. There's no there's no end in sight right of it and it's an it's an open ended authorization was it wasn't rewritten. It was written in a fairly Broadway it was the the The folks who are responsible sponsor for nine eleven and all of their compatriots which same tortured that same has been used to justify us pursuing everyone vigorous and NBA in vigorous agreement. I'm just saying that the the actual target of the actual The main action was known and elucidated at the time. It might not have been you you but I'm saying it was. It was sufficiently elastic. That's it could be used in context. And she was she was she was precise. My only argument here is that is that that was the writing of time the people that are opposing this the time whether it was international. Answer or people that were you know sort of legal scholars that are attacking people. John you justifiably so that that was kind of the stuff that was flooding out there and she was hoovering that up and regurgitating. My only argument is that I guarantee not you. If that was narrowly drawn she would oppose it to shore. I haven't completely a record. Visit your revolt in your knee jerk. Revulsion yeah which I able absolutely share Maybe lines you to the moments that they could be true crew and maybe what Congress doing is reminding us that that's when when everyone is outnumbered. There's only one vote on the other side. Like maybe take that vote a little bit more seriously particularly literally given the last twenty years maybe longer to whatever else can say to me now points. In the way that America war gets done which is is very good at the initial deposing of whatever and then it just lasts forever and so the thing that I wonder about is again. This is the stuff for you know historical novels. I mean there's no way of knowing but what the reaction from the American public would have been if rather than saying that this was overly broad. This this authorization of military force just saying well we don't trust the people in Dod and depends on just been attacks right and we don't trust and remember that the that it was like a pinup for a bit. Everybody I knew a very lefty woman saying she was like in love with Donald Rumsfeld watching his his news conferences after his press conference after nine. Eleven don't talk about Catherine Mango word. Like she's texted me now with voice notes from that time. So what would the reaction of Americans have been if nothing had happened at all and I think that is I mean. There's Bob thing is that it just kind of impeccable and I don't know that that would have been a the wrong tactic. Maybe sort of sitting and thinking about it a little but I mean it was. It was what. When did the bombing in October late October so over a month and I remember that time being like let's go let's go? We're something's nothing's happened to respond to this. And that was very common sentiment against Connor. I was young and then I was soon thereafter in Europe and in Europe. You're asked to answer surfer every American foreign policy failing since the war of eighteen twelve and it makes it makes you angry and you're like everywhere you go i. I didn't nobody paid me from embassy but I'm acting as a sort of defacto embassador at dinner parties in the rest of it and I started getting off the weird position of being in severe studying abroad and bin Laden giving these speeches talking about taking back Alan to loose and people who you know pretty conservative part of Spain to begin with Horford very friendly to the American efforts at the time it looks. Pain is a very different case because remember after the after the train bombing they kicked the government out which was a conservative government that was Was Aligned with Bush administration for saying that they Initially deflected and saying it was that it was the Basque separatist which clearly it wasn't the Basque separatist and they lost and Jose Maria Aznar who lost the election right after that and Socialists Social Democrats. Let's came in and it was funny because it's very very thing Spanish. Punish them after an al Qaeda attack for not telling everybody that was an al Qaeda attack. So I have a completely unfair query for the grouping honest about Yeah totally because I think I have an answer. I don't know how satisfied and I am with it at this stage but we talk a lot about what bad decisions around military engagements in conflict. Look like there. There may be any number of critical. Oh things to be sat around the room about the Bush doctrine and perhaps the Powell Powell's pottery barn rule is insufficient and maybe just war theory is not sort of a satisfactory rubric for us to use to evaluate conflicts. What the hell does good foreign policy for the US? Actually look like and I'm pulling the room. I'm in for me you. Maybe it's just my core principle is you should be very careful. This shit could go badly usually does. There's almost certainly unintended consequences. Go that you haven't considered and quite frankly even in your to push to achieve your goals. It's not obvious that any prices worth paying. But you're not all I am not telling you much about when you do something that which does not foreign policy although it ultimately that's the way it gets applied you're talking about when do we use. He's four someone. Do we not sure too much. Foreign policy is rest around that because that's where all of the money is. That's where all the incentives go. That's where for the majority of our advantage is and especially though definitely not only Under trump that There has been a kind of almost deliberate leakage of Leadership positions in other ways. And they sort of moral leadership position in the world. Whatever that means I mean? It's it's a lot of myth associated with it but myths are important to And like that's that's been frittered and it's it's a sign. Rosa Brooks has written about this a lot really. Well Oh I think Who Work in Obama's State Department and came out of that she'd been in La Times columnist? When I was the only times Jonah Barbara Aaron react and she's a pretty shrill Bush columnists gets into the State Department is like an undersecretary. Like a pretty high position and comes out of there and says we militarize everything That is the structure of decision-making and it's a disaster. It's very I think accurate critique so even the posing of your question Shen sure is accurate and it's also like that's not how foreign policy should be and hopefully that's not how it actually is in terms of of its managing relations with the international community in a way that is Preferably good for everybody. The Rosa Brooks is of the world are rare. Though I there's so many people that have a vision of foreign policy that is that is one that is maybe not as more non interventionist and and they get sucked up by the system number of people that go into you know Obama world and come out and say and defend the policies foreign policy decisions yes of the Obama Administration. That's quite common to Camille Point. I mean the thing that the certain foreign policy mandarins always talk about is the more you retreat. The more they WANNA punch you. I I don't know how I don't know how true that is. I don't know if I agree with that. I sort of tend not to. Is that if you show weakness they will show strength and you're going to eventually have to show strength at some point. I mean there's a lot of theory about that but the thing is really interesting. Is that if the more democratic you are the more difficult you have executing foreign policy. This seems fairly obvious but look like democratic meaning look at Russia for instance Russia's an example like don't talk about the Democratic Party. It's like if you look at. If you look at Russia you have direct to people say in the re causes theory. You have as Lon- children are murdered by Al Qaeda affiliated people there on their doorstep in in in in Chechnya in Dagestan Turkmenistan etc.. And then you have the siege of the opera in which they gassed everybody and killed the audience against and the terrorists. You have the apartment bombings which a lot of people credibly say was actually the FSBA. But you have these things you have subway bombings you have. The airport in Moscow was bombed and you have after that the Russian military going into Syria. And there's not because you have a you have a sort of media media completely controlled by the Kremlin few very very small exceptions and even those like Echo. Moscow is less of a sort of opposition. Radio Station Station was and you. Just don't have that sort of response. I mean you also don't have that response from Europe. You don't have Europeans going in front of Russian embassies. During the Syrian Syrian war when children are being liquidated by Russian bonds every day every day right and then you have the Wagner Group. which is they're mercenaries or scenarios committing unspeakable war-crimes? That's are effectively acknowledged by people and we have video of it and the rest of it the do not rise to the level of of Abba grab you. Don't have those images right. Russia doesn't get away with this and the reason that got away with is they do not give shit what the public things and they control what the public sees so I mean. I think there's a lot of other factors in there too but you know Russian foreign policy right now is imperialist and the way that American foreign policy isn't parents not in the sense that they want to take over countries and actually make them Russian territories. Kinda do well. I mean Ukraine of course but they think of that is not imperialism they think about as part of their actually. They're not like America or Spain big in the Philippines or something they see this in a rather a different way but the international outcry is something that everybody has to contend with which is obviously was a calculation. When I when I talked to Samantha Power and I brought up the red line in a lot of this and I said well how much of this was freighted with the with the problems of Iraq and basically really set all of our decisions are based on the world's response and our domestic response to our foreign policy failures when you look at Russia that just is not is not so much the case if you have a small example in true much more much more aggressive dictatorship of the Soviet Union of mothers protesting against their son's going to Afghanistan from seventy nine to when they pulled out and eighty seven eighty eight? Whatever that was and respond to that? But that was also a liberalizing person liberalizing figure but yeah it depends on where you are in the. US is foreign policy. Is is quite different. I I don't know if this is in tension with what you're saying not but my wish for future Decisions about foreign policy isn't going not in any particular instance. I probably don't have the expertise to know most of the time What I want? Our structural differences is that one force every member of Congress to vote regularly to authorize wars into reauthorize them like every year. I want them to have to reauthorize. is like a good idea. I want to do that now. Not not required every year. I want them paid for Li like so that they cost be so that the costs are clear. I want photos does of the people who were killed the caskets instead of just kind of pretending that they don't exist and I to me. Those structural changes are the way that you fix something that is broken. You don't want a single individual a president to be basing his decision on relection on talking to the poor wounded veteran Moran at Walter Reed and not wanting his trip abroad to be in vain You know about their place in history. I want Congress and its responsiveness botanist of the people who are going to face elections. And maybe get voted out of office to have to stand up and I think there's a real danger that were were hurling toward where you know. It's hard to remember this now. But Bush of course ran in two thousand on having a humble foreign policy in the morning nation building and that was what Americans seconds wanted. Yeah and then. Barack Obama ran as the antiwar president. who wasn't going to get into more is known gets in and Appoint Hillary Clinton as his secretary of State and goes in Libya uh-huh and then Donald trump runs as the bring the troops home But he doesn't bring them home. He just kind of moves them away from the Kurds in Syria to like another part of Syria or like into Iraq. And they don't come home. The war's don't end and the American electorate seems to be willing to go with increasing versions of outsiders in in order to like bring the troops home. So who knows where. We're going to go next. If it's Marianne Williams someone like her one day. I there needs to be some democratic responsiveness or you. You just end up having some weird consequences for the political system for democracy one I don't have a proposal by the I do I I don't have a lot of faith him. The Democratic field in general one aspect of them. That is interesting. And underplayed is the extent to which reference before that when asked I New York Times asked them all the same question about two months back and You know what are you doing Afghanistan and pretty much all of them would different levels of hamming in high or like get the hell out it to away. That was kind of hard to imagine and a lot of them name checked you a maths in a very detailed and helpful structural kind of way Joe Biden and Samantha. Power book comes across and this week the only time I say this so just go ahead and mark this. When it's the only time that Joe Biden has sounded comparatively sensible on foreign policy? He merchants as the dove in the Obama Administration. Ministration at every key moment he was like. Don't draw the red line. Let's not go to war Libya. No sorry Michael. I'll only pound the table election of we'd probably table here tonight. Burqas Shock absorbent. It was a little much to call Assad Esther Williams though I thought the one over the line but like seriously he was he was the impediment and and the way that she describes this and she's sort of more liberal interventionists liberal international's kind of a Point of view. Humanitarian intervention is that Biden felt burned by Iraq. He did he pulled Fredersdorf on Ghanistan with right right now fully. Didn't go full freighter store because that's well known to freighters pull of Biden teeth. Get any sort like grabbing people's hair straight razor in a rain barrel speaking so maybe maybe the Democratic field is when Tulsi Gabbard says you know you all have Hillary Clinton's foreign policy. I appreciate the gesture. appreciated her wearing the anti war and anti interventionist mantle even if she's weird around the edges But her critique of like you all have her foreign policy they don't they really actually don't judge does not have Hillary Clinton's foreign policy. He's not walking around saying Libya was The application of smart power at its best that is absolutely not what he is saying. Biden is not saying this was just a surprise kind of which which is funny because of stupid partisan Republican. Grandstanding is that the only reason that people have sort of negative view of Libya at all is because the Benghazi hearings and you know four Americans died Ghazi and like what's the death toll otherwise I mean we don't care when there's no death-toll of Americans more or less in so it's it hasn't really sunk. In when Hillary Clinton running for president that was not a sharp critique that landed with a lot of people because Libya's he is a mess and I think most people will presumably a mess if we weren't there anyway and those guys died at Benghazi and then we have this hearings and there was movies about it and it was terrible more hearings more hearings brings it more hearings and Trey Goudy was having hearings at his self backyard. What's he doing right now by the way he's a lawyer and he's now box He was he was a Fox contributor contributor and he was left because he was gonna go do. The trump trumpers job wasn't fully solidified. Sort of botched the announcement he left and then he came came back. You never never trust trump job announcements. WanNa wait until you get the paperwork and say oh man. Yeah I mean the foreign policy stuff is you. You know amazingly difficult and I think the things that it's always hard for me because I think the reasons given by people who ooh I essentially lineup with these days as far as as far as foreign policy and skepticism of American foreign policy particularly in the Middle East is that I always want to you with them until I hear them talk about it. You know and it's like oh it's a war for oil and you know it's because of these and I'm like I can't I have to walk away. It's Ah the forward motion of the American Foreign Policy Machine is is this thing that one cannot control and a lot of ways. And you talk to people like in the State Department's why those Obama people come out like you know much more hawkish and you know you know advising that Anwar Al Ali and his son be blown up in the middle of the desert in Yemen and it's like that kind of stuff is like that number one number two is always this incredibly pompous way of thinking about America that we are the root of of in. The cause of all problems is that we can get into it like should we be helping the Saudis in their war against the WHO the rebels and their proxy war with Iran ends in Yemen. But you know this if we back that we exacerbated all all of it I mean I can't imagine a place in the Middle East where we haven't exacerbated the problems but they exist anyway But you know I have a hard time being on side with the people that actually agree with the The answer your question Shen I think that in the moment that we live through a wrote a piece A couple of weeks ago about Populism actually quoting from a great great study from the Tony Blair Institute From a year ago and they're updating tire. I guide they're pretty good in like saying that the the you know the people who were flying the flag in the ninety s made a lot of mistakes in the people who who Were big cheerleaders for these supranational organizations. That took away people's sovereignty in the name of sort of a technocratic neoliberal elite they did not pay proper respect to democratic. You know checking in in with their own populations so good. But anyways RISA population populism of last decade has been pretty striking right like regar- you can define populism in different ways and they they they break it out into the category of like cultural populism which they will throw in with if like mody in India trump. They put in that category They kind of create a category called anti establishment populism which is different than cultural But then they have the socioeconomic which is more kind of Bulevar Or you know the Chavis but at any rate is way more people who live on this now than ten and years ago and in writing about this and this is a I think published the morning or close to the British elections Kind of solidified. I talked about about this last time. we're we gather together like that's the world we live in like. That's not going away. People are there is a worldwide. Uh whether it's left whether it's right whether it's bannon whether it's Sanders or Corbin and it's not corporate actually anymore But that but that's where we yet. That's that's where we are right now and so like. How are you going to adapt to this reality? And so for me. The person who was thinking about this in in a way that is actually productive is as I mentioned before Emmanuel Macron at some point like NATO as we know it is not the thing anymore we have to like re decide whether we are doing this NATO thing or not and for me those things would be okay we re decide how the US is going to sit in the world trading system and what the mechanism is WTO died last week. Another notice that story that just kind of you know whatever the WTO just died and why that's kind of a thing so all right there's a lot of people who are licking their wounds. A lot of writers who I respect in England England Timothy Garton ash the great historian of and journalists of the Central European revolutions licking their wounds after Boris Johnson. And I kind of want to give them a hug and slap in the face and like say all right get get with it. Stop Lay mentoring this world. That is gone because it is gone. The the the need for people to express their sense of reasserting their sovereignty over matters that they want to have input on whether it's immigration or trade or whatever that's strong and it's being there's a correction of foot so the purpose of American foreign policy I think is to check in with the American people. Sound like a politician for a second there The American people really well But no I mean if you poll. Americans they want to have an alliance with like four countries. And it's all like England Australia where where where the white English english-speakers at and Israel. That's that's when that's where you get to sixty plus percent we're happy with those. Were not so happy about Estonia. So like if you're going to do Estonia and I WANNA WANNA do Estonia. Michael wants to do Estonia in like DIS heart of hearts. I literally running for parliament right now. I've got one of those e passports that they give out so no but I think the purpose of American foreign policy is to like let's remake all of those arguments and have those discussions with the partners out there. Let's try to figure out a way to to to withstand adapt to the moment that we live in a way that doesn't lead to a stupid mercantilist nightmare which I I think. We're going into super bombed out about station. You're the one I always goes up. Marquette Marquette Mercantil did you see one of our one one of our super fans Actually it's Nathan Lemur of formerly of the Of the FCC. AFC saying he would pay an extra tier eh to have me read names out of the phone book pronunciation. Yes so bad. Just one recommendation on that before we move on that I don't know I mean our friend who who works over at the daily Did a great episode today Very very good episode today. Milk Nelson and emails Producer over there. Who's great and he did the the Isis podcast to They did one today on a small town in in the middle of England. Did you used to have a coalpit there. In the eighties during the miners strike was not only a Labor stronghold. But this is a this is a skinner Arthur scargill like you know really far left Labour stronghold very very and for the first time they all flipped Not The first time the previous election but the the they voted for Brexit and they flipped and a very big way for Boris Johnson. which is astonishing? And you know because you know. It's through their local. MP He who's a conservative. You have a conservative winning and beating. the beast The gentleman Mr Skinner who who is eighty six seven years old and like one of the sort of lions of parliament left wing alliance opponent and they do a very good job of explaining exactly how it happens and it makes you annoyed at the way. Brexit is covered. I think brexit is it was a bad idea for a variety of reasons. But but you see these people talking about the coalpit closed and then. This sportswear manufacturer makes like tracksuit bottoms. Very popular in England to You know they they have these low shittier jobs and they have this problem that you have in the US to is that. Nobody wants them because they're temporary jobs. They don't get good benefits from them like you know it's it's shoot of your pay and it's pretty great for Polish people and says a lot of Polish people there and every person voted for breakfast brexit. Because they don't what the Polish people there and it's not a racial thing and it's important to remember that immigration doesn't always have to be that way and it is like this is the case the Polish plumber which is a hate figure. If you're in Europe from two thousand seven I remember when I was five six seven. There's a big billboard of the Polish plumber there in the ninety s already. Yeah and it was like these guys in Europe represents we'll take any job and they're undermining our wages. Everyone's trying to do something about it. Like Sweden. The Union was trying to do something about it. They became you know like unions often can be very very anti immigration and in the contiguous EU that means being opposed to the European Union. Because then you get to set your own border policy so you understand and these people are like you know heavily. Accented sort of middle England people people who used to work in the coal pits and hated Margaret Thatcher with a passion that was that was unsurpassed in modern British history of hate that was directed towards her by miners and by the and the and the National Union of miners. That's that is you know insane. And now they're running for Conservatives and conservatives have a posh sounding you know like madman like And I mean that in a positive. I don't think he's a crazy person that way. But like a funny weird shambolic kind of Boris Johnson who's eaten Oxbridge Guy Right but you know they're voting for him and it's because they want to and that's the course today when a AH parliament say get brexit done. That's what they're interested in. And that's of a version of populism. It's very easy to trace. It's very easy to understand. But if you read the Guardian the end the Guardian only you say like wow we didn't know bridge-builder so racist well there were those people. They are racist against Polish people. That's racism it's not is there uh whether they're right about this Iran about this and I happen to be wrong. The seeing the immediate results of that from a coalpit closing five hundred ninety six which were run run by the government. Obviously the government's choosing which called pulpits to keep it in operation and it's hilarious because the left the British left the Kinda a hard left at the time who's people like shame as mill. Now the people of it The ranchera me Corbin where desperately trying to keep coal burning in in England which was gonNA change over time but yeah the to the to the worst thing that you a huge mistake to paint brushes that the trump voters are racist. Only there's obviously some are the the people who voted for breakfast are knuckle dragging people who hate eight Muslims or something. They they are afraid of a lot of people and I think the wrong a bit but but but it's understandable Michael Difficulty with what you're proposing is that the narrative you just laid out is complicated and simpler narratives went out there racist their knuckle draggers and I liked the is people because it makes it easier for me to justify myself offend my own views because some are you get to you get to do it fairly convincing some some always are. I wonder if anyone actually walked through Times Times Square on their way over to the studio because I had seen reports that there are pro impeachment rallies happening all over the country including in Times Square. Some of the reporting has earlier it was stretching like five city blocks the pro impeachment rally. I didn't see this came from the West. It's fake news. Donald Trump has been warning us about fake news for a while I wonder and I I want to talk about some other things as well. But it's connor since you're in the room and since I know you've been writing about this recently. If he could pivot they're really quickly given that we may be At impeachment eve it seems appropriate to revisit this and Connor. You wrote a piece earlier this week looking at now inside the Republican case against instant peach mint which I think it's a Republican case against the impeachment. That at least in the house is probably not gonNA carry the day When the votes are cast tomorrow but there is something that that you wrote that I've asked about in the room before that I think is worth putting to you? I'm in terms of the Democrat case against the president. The two articles goals that he that they are considering part of the case. Is that when the president sought this favor from Ukrainian president and Whether or not the money was sort of a contingency related to it their claim is that he did all of this four for quote corrupt purposes in pursuit of personal political benefit unquote And I think in your P. said that it strains credulity to actually believe that the president was doing this without seeking some sort of personal political benefit was only doing it or wasn't doing it at least to in some respect to achieve some personal personal political benefit right and I. I think that's right. Here's the question I have for. You does it matter to you. If the president actually believes the Joe Biden and his son were up to no good and thinks that believes that it was necessary to continue these investigations. Not necessarily open them but Continue these investigations to get to the truth because he thought it was so outrageous. Whether or not it's hypocritical. Fine no his State of mind matter to you. State of mind doesn't matter to me. I think to individually and exclusively target your likely. You're likely election opponent. uh-huh is corrupt and self serving and wrong. Whatever you're crazy state of mind might be and that You know it's funny because you can step back in the abstract abstract say well. How can you have really no? And the Republicans engage in this kind of rhetoric. How can you ever really know if a president does something for just personal benefit or for Some mix of motives or for. And it's like. Yeah it is really hard to know that a lot of times and yet you have this guy who hired hard Paul manafort hard Rudy Giuliani. who still running around with all kinds of Ukrainian clients doing God knows what monitoring monitoring is ties to the United States and tossing his ties to president trump and you have trump coming into office not seeming to care very much about the Biden's alleged corruption in Ukraine until Biden was polling? Very well against him until the timing was very suspicious. And you put all these things together. And there's just no plausible laws -able way that something like what the Democrats allege wasn't going on and there's really. The Republican case against impeachment in the Judiciary Committee was the one that just came out You know they are act against though trump. Did nothing wrong that this was all just totally above board that sandline was just misinformed and making things up And there's just so much unexplained elaine if you want to have that theory of the case like how do you fit. Rudy Giuliani into that theory. How do you fit? The personal attorney of the president going to Ukraine aimed specifically asking for the vines to be investigated telling the press. I'm doing this on behalf of life. It just to help my client and perhaps the country it it just goes so far beyond the realm of what is plausible that What would normally be my kind of overwhelming caution about attributing beating motives It's just like you found the case where I feel like I can attribute motives It just doesn't get much more clear cut than this and I don't think that this is like a criminal a case where we have to prove beyond a reasonable doubt whether trump did something. You're not the question is Does it seem to a reasonable reasonable person like he was acting in a way that is likely to continue doing. And it's harmful to the country and I like your formulation. A lot that presidents presidents misbehavior lot and kind of gene healy cult of the presidency. Kind of way. Maybe if we start pushing back against these things more you would have more more careful precedents for this reason. I wish that impeachment was a lot less narrow than it is. I wish it was delving into the ways that I think trump is profiting and his private businesses From the presidency. I wish that it was going into what I think was his unlawful bombing of Syria. I think that there's a longer list of articles of impeachment. It can reasonably be drawn up. And I kind of don't like the idea. Nick Lesbians made this point on the reason. PODCAST that Is this Ukraine thing. Really the most egregious thing that a president has done and he doesn't like the implication that that is so But it it's what Democrats are putting forth and I think it is wrong and I'm for impeachment it's such a big threshold in the house and the Senate that I don't think it's very likely that it will get out of hand and be abused. There's just not that many cases he says when two thirds of the senator are going to be willing to remove a president. I think you might have also said something along the lines of if they don't impeach or remove here that that would be be an agreed outcome that that they ought to be pursuing. This and I think it is a it would be a very harmful thing. If every elected president started leaning on foreign leaders eaters to advantage them in domestic political things. It seems like a very realistic danger. The president has a huge amount of sway over foreign leaders especially especially countries with intelligence services. That are more sophisticated than Ukraine's you know. What if it was trump literally China to look into the Biden's to know he'll the only he'll be doing that with Turkey with Israel and trump himself Arabia? If if there's no penalty why won't trump himself. Keep doing this up until the election and you you know. Maybe I'll start going after senators or members of Congress before the next midterms if he's re-elected who knows if there's no penalty it's one of those cases where impeachment seems like the only Revenue Eddie. What about censure? I mean a censure. That is actually bipartisan. Eye Center relies on shame. A sense of shame that I don't think trump possesses But I mean it's still a matter. Her of communicating a message to the American people perhaps to hold the guy accountable maybe to denigrate him to diminish his chances of winning again if he in fact it is a poses. A particular threat wouldn't censor on a bipartisan basis. Be a better outcome than impeachment. where he just ends up getting acquitted in the Senate by his compatriots maybe obviously getting acquitted in the Senate isn't ideal if you're coming from the perspective that I am I kind of worry that center you know he would just put like The most perfect center ever on a red hat and were maybe maybe I think the part of what makes me wonder about and I. I'm I'm still in favor of impeachment. I haven't changed my mind. Like the flipflop Cheese Matt Welsh moos perhaps changed his mind again come back to the sidelines tweeted so might have but but I wonder about something else that you mentioned when I was texting with you earlier there and I said is there anything. That's kind of on your heart to discuss with us. And it's the fact that like most Americans don't actually give shit about Ukraine like they can't find Ukraine on the map. I suspect that most of the people who are in the streets who are angry about this the they're kind of angry about the specific thing that the president did wrong but most most of them already hated his ass and wanted to find a reason to get him out and we were committed to quote impeach. The mother fucker before this particular perfect phone call always made this. This was a in some respects legitimately a foregone conclusion and the president and in two respects one. They really wanted to do it. And to this particular particular president is so careless and flagrant that he was going to give them ample opportunity to impeach him. For something legitimately gentlemanly I will say definitively. I'm saying that this is legitimate. People but they don't actually care about Ukraine and they don't care about Ukraine the way they don't care about a lot of other things that you've been thinking about that Americans don't care about and I I mean you could run down the list Americans is generally. Don't care about Hong Kong They don't care about the the workers in China they don't care about the new laws that are passed in India the the citizenship laws there that are making it impossible for Muslims to be citizens they don't care about any of these things that are consequential important break they well. The ongoing surveillance valence in the United States. That still feel sorta home We we don't seem to ever talk about anymore or acknowledge and it's why this moment of Whoa politics on the left is disorienting for me as someone who spent a lot of the later years of the Bush administration and the entire Obama Administration In Vang against things that I found genuinely outrageous Some of the strikes that killed innocent some of the mass surveillance and secret secret huge things. I've written recently critically about Michael. Bloomberg is spying on students for no other reason that they were Muslim. And Stop and Frisk and you would think these kinds of things would be anathema to a sort of woke social justice focus politics I certainly Think of them as social the justice causes One of the things that motivated me to write about them and yet It seems as if a poorly worded Barry Weiss treat tweet great will get more outrage. Many times It seems like even the Buddha Judge Camera Harris dynamic where to me Harris was terrible district attorney of San Francisco a terrible ag of California Did a lot of things that criminal justice reform. Is this this issue that is supposed to be foremost in the minds of progressives ought to think is horrendous and in some way there seems to be more concerned concerned about well. Judge doesn't seem to attract very much African American support. And is he really gay enough these kind of these kind of stylistic critiques Senator and I just I can never make sense of why it is that the kind of woke progressive politics a lights on some of the causes or many of the because of that. It often seems to alight on while ignoring things that seem just utterly egregious to me and I'll give you one example. NBA players were so celebrated it for so long for speaking up against Police abuses and I think rightfully so. I think it's good you know. The United States has a lot more Police killings then other comparable countries. There's a lot of complicated reasons for that. But some of them are unnecessary. It'd be great if we can have reformed so that would reduce them And yet what. Bigger profile in cowardice is there than these multimillion dollar athletes billionaire athletes in some cases on just refusing to say bad word about China. That just came down. What do they come down on another league or or something? Someone said something that Soccer League the game they took off. I didn't even catch that as a player. On arsenal one of the biggest premier league teams was a Muslim he was creditor. He's a critical of the crackdown on the weekends. In China and China responded by pulling a Premier League game from Chinese. TV keeping in mind that this is literally one person on the club now. It's not a position that everyone got to together and got down on one knee What's the Ozil does thank you remember? But he's very is like a very famous player so the one player in the NBA was the most outspoken also a Turk. I'm happy to be the first person to always criticise all Turks everywhere. It is that a thing that you're gonNA start arming. Yes that's not a good policy but we all have our little countries. Yeah we kind of Kantor Who's WHO's great? He's been phenomenal on this. And other good guy I would say eh to that for me. There was a moment Comedian I and also fish We worked on the independence program which ran from the end of Twenty thirteen into the beginning of two thousand fifteen greatest program in the history capable super really good still can't believe it got on the air like literally the first week or the first month. Camille meals like dropping bombs on. Everybody was so it was like an entire segment. Yeah no it was set the record Kennedy and I are just like to work nick. Oh the Cable News. I still own that for some reason. The Guinness Book of World Records is not recognising achievement. Racism which obviously it clearly oppressor my body. What shame are sorry? We ran the twenty fourteen the only in uninterrupted year. And that was the year Ferguson and a bunch of stuff came through so we ended up writing a writing Talking a lot about these issues and I think in a really interesting way Camille in particular but the program Did in an interesting. I think that like changed the way that the not us but like the the country's conversation tation about this stuff change in for a while some of that was was in pretty. You know Belco tastic forms people were talking about the militarization of police. There are speaking about things in terms that were familiar. Maybe to the five of us in the room but not too too normies And so there's this energy that's bubbling up and there are organizations that are coming up with it And some of those organizations Are Doing working on some pretty good but in interesting criminal justice reform Initiatives and there was a moment for years ago between Hillary Clinton and Bernie Sanders. Forget the event exactly but it was. They were both confronted at a at the same event by activists do black lives matter and Bernie said well and gave the the sort of social like the Ralph Nader answer of like he wants to talk about class. He doesn't WanNa talk about race Gets around down to things. That are on a policy level. Very copacetic with the critiques. That people might have Civil Libertarian grounds and even explicitly racial grounds but he his overall frame is a class frame. And it's not a race frame didn't he did he. Didn't he say he said all lives matter which racist. Yeah this is the end. Hillary Clinton who's very long track record in the world has not been good on this issue in the thousand ways gave. That'll smirking at black lives. Matter standing. Ovation Avenue Yeah. No it's and like for maybe I was over reacting to that moment but it kind of like is that really. What mattered in the scheme? Of things that your whole career you know that Bernie Sanders probably plays up a little bit more than one should. But if I've been there I've been playing it up to like the pictures of him in one thousand nine hundred sixty to Chicago marching and civil rights rallies like he was always there was a lot of credit for that. And you know a AH but like it's the momentary like how do you deal with the most illusory or fleeting moments of like of of stated Whatever that means more than entire swath of policier or career in office? There's there's this there's this tweet I flagged Camille and we were going back and forth by. Who Was it Jim? Lb Yeah I was going to mention this right now and I wasn't going to say his name but glad you did and he Basically said for all of you people who think that There's a woke problem democratic politics. Tell me the marginalized groups whose concerns that you think Democrats should address less And that is the kind of not kind of a trick question right turnaround. He's good at that and it's like precisely decisively. The claim being made here is that This kind of politics is in its worst and should be critiqued when it isn't actually representing anyone's interests when it becomes a kind of politics of Like upper class connected manners and politeness. Yeah like you know using the right spoon for dessert at a fancy he dinner and that really is what it seems to be much of the time that a you have signaled that you are an ally because you know exactly what to say and I mean it. Striking rate that we have a leftist politics in the United States thinks that people on college campuses should have to go through cultural competency training. Yes they are able to interact with people of different races. Genders are ethnic groups so like what does this say about people that go to college. They cannot be culturally competent to interact. Interact with one. Another cultural competence training is called interacting with people. Kind of figure it out. But it's such a there's a real that's the president and so I don't thinking through The commitments that has to the equal civil rights of different groups. I E even to pretty expansive agenda for gay rights for transfers. I'm pretty much on board with Everything that I can think of. I don't think that there's a substantial substantive substantive disagreement really and yet We seem to see this differently. And I just don't believe that the people who complain about woke okay or you know the polls that show overwhelming majorities of Americans are against political correctness. I don't think that they're talking about substantive equality Or even decent decent manners two groups. I don't think that I want to call people racial epithets. I don't think that they want to go around disrespecting people I just think they're tired of kind of constantly shifting and standards that no one knows have east like militarization standards. And that's the problem that that I have I have with. This stuff is sort of gesture politics and I think I don't know if I did it in the patron thing. We did the other day we last week but I remember mentioning that someone got mad at me for a fake accent that was not from any real country and that was perfect. That actually explained everything and I said can a few bars. I know because when I'm thinking about it will be You'll be perfect and asked him. Why are you mad? Add that because you're doing the accent. But what accent is that they're like. I don't know it's just that you shouldn't do it. Why I don't know it's just this sort of gesture politics and the thing about that is where cricket scary is I see people? You know who. It's much easier to to Congress point about. Why do you not care about these large issues? It's much easier to to go around policing other people to show them that you care. You're knowledgeable about where we should be as a country and as a society sort of socially they going around and sort of monitoring people's People's speech Shen pronouns and how you dress things and you know I would say a- As you say of a journal Boo I appreciate it and somebody but I don't because I don't trust their your motives and I like the the people that that have the power now because of the fear that and I'm thinking of a couple of examples that I've seen around me is that people make these his wild complaints. What why is that? Strange defense in the sanctions come before they're finished offering the complaints because the terror involved in like particularly companies HR departments et Cetera. That they just don't it's best not to give an example of you can't take a theoretical example if someone look if I if I had done it like look what are you Jay if title image if I did the convenience accent it was like this like you know. Kind of ambiguous accident wasn't actually a real accent and someone was offended by it because somebody actually was offended by that with me recently and I was like what are you talking about. Backed off because they realize they were just it was just an instinct a little a little twitch in if that person had not it said something to me but instead gone to. HR or something. Like that I would be. I would have to answer for them and that would be. You can no longer. Just say you're you're being a fool. You're being silly. That's ridiculous we have an hr the fifth avenue HR. What I think the hairs yeah? I think there's a lot of unappreciated appreciate it cost to this politics. One of it is people are less willing to engage in conversations about Fraud issues that could could move them in a good direction and lead to greater understanding maybe they have a wrong-headed opinion. That would be corrected if it were expressed and disgust. Hashed over people afraid to engage in the conversation at all. I also think that when you it's kind of up for debate at any time What it means to respect someone is is a matter of cultural norms right and a certain swath of people into thinking I mean the near a taxi cab commission right just put out this guidance to New York City taxi drivers Instructing taxi drivers that a good thing would be when someone gets in your cab ask what their pronouns are and are you kidding which is weird levels and when you're not respecting the culture of most of these cab drivers who will not interested in asking people to come in the cab like I'm offended if you ask me that question but person so your offense loses out to the offense of the person now clearly. This is not going to happen. York City taxi drivers are not going to ask people's pronouns when they get in the cab never cultivating some small segment of people to believe this. This is a sign of disrespect is not a sign of disrespect. It is impracticality it would create much more awkwardness and conflict. If they did these the disrespectful to in some ways I mean we can't adjudicate people's cultural beliefs. Who drive cabs? And there's for instance. There's a neighborhood where friend of mine who's a listener to this in most of the people that in his neighborhood or Bangladeshi and there is a cab drivers and you can see the cabs like triple parked while they I pray at certain times of the day we would be asking people who probably are not. Let's be honest probably not going to be like wait. I'm sorry transgender. People not on high on their list. I mean these people have a culture that is probably not really attuned to gender issues and doesn't want to be and that is something. I'm guessing but I suspect I'm probably right about I. I mean it's a it's a very weird thing is like respect the culture I mean you get into the sweepstakes whose culture you actually end up perspective. But how many times is it going to be that a guy. I who's a little bit insecure about looking a little bit feminine or woman is a little bit insecure about masculine suddenly asked them Pronoun and gets offended. You could just see that APP you can get offense in all different directions directions and does this. Does this change in. What politeness is imputed to consist of actually help anyone? I can't imagine that A A politics of respect for transpeople equal rights for Trans People You know gender reassignment surgery being covered by healthcare. We're all of these substantive things that I'm inclined to support I just can't see something like the New York City taxi. Cab thing to just cite one example of of many in this realm realm is actually advancing things anyway except for changing what it is considered to be polite in a kind of never ending way that impossible for anyone to ever actually comply live with because it just keeps changing. You're right about the extension of this. The woke nece into these other peripheral areas being the place where maybe the worst manifestations of the worst consequences of of this philosophy Exist but I also worry about the particularism of Focus. So maybe I am. The Guy who's a little more critical of the boys up the world and even the concessions the concessions Russians that right thinking people like the gentlemen in this room and I think even Yukon are in this otherwise I think fabulous piece that you wrote about Michael Bloomberg about all the various ways that he's miserable and terrible awful and no good You said something when you were talking about. Stop and Frisk and you specifically referred referred to the racial component of stock. Stop and Frisk and from my standpoint. I appreciate that. There are a great many people who are deeply concerned about stop and Frisk because of the disproportionate impact on the minority residents of the city who were being stopped in most cases But for me the fundamental antle issue is a civil liberties issue and it would be an issue whether or not the people who were being stocker white or black or otherwise and the fact that black people are the ones who are being over stopped it. It actually. Seems like a bit of a distraction from the fundamental issue that we're talking about two not in the direction the racial stuff and you worry about the particular -ness of of of sort of what question for you but if you believe that those civil liberties are being violated because people are motivated by by racial distrust but it's hatred but it's an absurd conclusion to reach. I mean it's also the Donald Trump believes someone someone who nfl from this policy. If Michael Bloomberg is to be believed when he says well we'RE GONNA WE'RE GONNA over stop lateral to stop a gun violence in the city. The principal victims victims of gun violence in the city are minorities so this discriminatory policy is being instituted against the black people for the benefit of black people because racism right it's an it's ridiculous. Circular argument not necessarily. I think it also gets keeping just a separate your problems with the problem with the general Bloomberg vibe which is that. He thinks that poor people should pay more taxes. The whole point point of sin taxes is that changes the poor people's behavior and that's going to be for their own good right so this is of a piece I don. I won't claim a racial aspect aspect to it but that's why I'm saying that placing the particular concern for blackness on these issues in these. Contexts is actually a bit of a distraction attraction that creates more problems than maybe or maybe not but it's also part of the way that he thinks about it I am doing. I'm stopping black. People because black people want me to who stopped them for their own good for their own communities. He has made this explicit in his in his apology. If we stop and Frisk forever up until like last week when he's decided he's going to have the president excellent now he's modified this somewhat in a very unconvincing way but that's like part of what he's that's part of his thing and I think the paternalism of it is. This has all kinds of weird and I think nasty and wrong overtones both on a A position of pure public policy but also on the strong dictating. What the blinkered week can or shouldn't do it'll you and that's worth actually not turning your head I I hear you but what I'm saying is whether or not you codify that? With respect to race you can still call that eternal them and you can still explain the Specific wrong that exists in the one thing that it's not even in the way you explained it is racist. I think I've a different take on this. I think that that's good. I was I was pushing for that. We can imagine that Michael Bloomberg and Heather McDonald or Ernest. When they say that we are trying to save black lives in our policies successfully did that? I totally totally believe him when they say and that can be true and it doesn't affect my critique of these policies. which is that if you're looking looking at the? If our commitment is that everyone should be treated as individuals in a colorblind way and these policies are basically saying thing they're higher crime rates in this racial group and so we're going to burden even innocent people who do not commit crimes because other people who have the same skin color ars them are committing crimes that are disproportionate rate I don't think that that is a legitimate civil liberties compromise. Is it anymore legitimate. If you just go to the UTICA station in bed Stuy and you stop every fifth person that comes in because no come as the saints and if they would have been doing that I agree with you. It's it's kind of what they were doing because they didn't have like the stop and Frisk wasn't happening like downtown in the financial district like at my stop. It wasn't happening there. It was happening out in bed. Stuy it it also wasn't happening when I was in In Grad school than all you I would walk up to Harlem and spend a bunch your time at a senior center reporting along feature in areas where they did a lot of stop and Frisk and to no end surprise. I was stopped zero times so I do think that me too. You know we can separate the reconsideration the motives of Michael Bloomberg right from the motives of all of the individual NYPD COPS and even if only five percent of the NYPD COPS had racial animus. And I think that that's probably understating the true number but even if it was only five percent over time with people people doing eight hour shifts that has a tremendous burden and it has a tremendous burden on whole communities. It changes the tenor of life in these places It's also the case and Michael Bloomberg wouldn't never implement would never say you know we've got a lot of white collar crime on Wall Street. We're going to start taking guys who are going into these tall glassy office buildings. We're GONNA throw it against the wall. We're going to open their briefcase where you look at the documents they have inside and we're going to see if there's anything funny going on here right. Turn out your suitcases and and so I think when I think it is I I think they might. Actually I think it is fair when you have a When you have a racial group that is being targeted Innocent members are being targeted in a disproportionate way Or A for that matter in the kind of Julia Ghetto side thesis. If you have a a community is aware a racial group is being disproportionately underserved by the police. it's worth flagging that I agree with you and with Thomas Chatterton Chadderton Williams That we ought to be moving toward a colorblind side. That ought to be the goal But I still think it's worth flagging these disproportionate disproportionate outcomes when they exist. I think there's sometimes flags when they don't exist to but stop and Frisk is a pretty clear case where it did exist. Even though if it was all white people being stopped. I still would've of Said you can't do that. That's the fourth but is there questions is not my my issue. Is there evidence of this in a non-racial way or interracial racial way or a racially neutral way. Where people because I mean you're talking about when people are stopping people like UTICA and or Connors going so Harlem and not being being stopped and Camille says well I'm not either? There's that kind of cultural profiling. That's going on to the difference between Danny Glover very famously late ninety s did that protest in front of. TLC in front of a taxi commission saying black people couldn't get picked up by cabs and there were very few white cab drivers at the time and he's always ask cab drivers about always said the same thing and I don't know if they got a talking point to say it but they were always darker than anybody that I knew they were you know dark skinned people would say that depends on where I am this way and that way I'll I'll pick up their downtown if you're in front of this but I won't pick them up town whether or not that's that's that's true or whether the efficacy efficacy of preventing crime against yourself. It doesn't really matter to me for the purposes of this question is that is are there people like in I don't know what is the version of the OPIOID epidemic. They pick up people who look like juggle those is there. Is there something that we know that in Ohio. Ohio where there's people cooking math and they're just focusing on neighborhoods and stopping people there and it's disproportionately affecting innocent people there. But there isn't a racial category so I'll take out take just being a point. I just don't know if there's actually so native a New York City I mean I mistrust Bloomberg's motives more than you do because mm-hmm we know that he was okay with embedding. NYPD officers in with Muslim students targeting them specifically because of their religion and justifying it even after this year's long program generated literally zero terrorism. So we have some in. And I don't I don't I would not contest the using Rachael descriptions in that context. I think that's the only way to explain res- happening in a circumstance like that or if not racial at least like religious for exempt so it seems like not beyond the bounds of possibility that someone with the character of Bloomberg might at least have some of the same motivation with regards to race than than religion. It's at least possible. astle wouldn't be inconsistent with this other case and then we have audio of NYPD precinct captains saying stop black and Brown people it. It's it's pretty straight. It's not to say that that's true of the entire NYPD because it's a tremendous large force tremendous diversity of people and motives and and you know. Yeah but there are. It's a majority minority for their clear. Instances both people being stopped on on the streets and having racial epithets used against them and also These kind of precinct level. Go ahead and stop this kind. Discolor of people Until whatever we want to say about the overall policy there was at least some racist valence to this I would argue. That's pretty clearly demonstrate. There's tapes that people saying that from there's there's some Story that came out over the past ten days I think it was hooked to a lawsuit that covered policing from twenty fourteen and fifteen so it was even predate early Blasi oh But where you had Tapes of of cops talking about specifically like where to an who to enforce a turnstile jumping specifically about turnstile now jumping in one of the cops was quoted as saying He was scalded for quote stopping too many Russian and Chinese first of all they say new outside of the Russian and Chinese. What are we even doing? It's part of the Russian Culture Joe. turnstiles don't pay. This is stupid on the voice with Dr Dude. That's fine it's disgusting. I you know I read Every time when I read to my job so it's like once every month Kyats in hit and then she's like to not even reach me once a month they can we. Can I get this lower. We're in the frequency that I have at this point. She's old enough she actually Physically punched me. I had a question and I don't want to disrupt the conversation but I know that I'm GonNa Forget it. And it's all just work mile. Alzheimer's you're not disrupting. Please go connor. You were talking about the taxicab like you know talk about the gender pronouns Two to three of the five people sitting around this very important table work for woke media companies you all. We'll have different descriptions of that like average. I'm like you all have different levels of your company's not you whatever so my question his how many view free thank you run. It hurts woke. I mean it'll be soon enough. No like no comment He's cut this take. How many times have you in your life in any context heard people sit you down for the Pronoun Talk? I go we should think about your pronouns and you know it's it's important to do that thing with the pronouns. I prefer not to talk but I you say this this is how one dodge is a question. Typically when you dodging a question you don't start by saying I'm dodging question. Do you want to keep. Its like the three card Monte trick you on and my God what the Hell it go the show I patriot. I will say this there is a very common connery's the word that I think that is is Often here but this is what plight right and it always reminded me. When I was in college the bumper sticker that I live in North Hampton Massachussetts? That's -Chusetts which is a very sort of radical place Northampton. Lovely place. I loved it I would live there again. But it's a radical place rather politically. It's quite left wing and and there was always a bumper sticker on the back of like Volvos. It said feminism is the radical idea that women are equal not really. It's not exactly you know that's not exactly exactly what it is. When you're reading judith? Butler are you reading Catharine MacKinnon or things like that. There's a lot more to it than that. So the bumper sticker stuff is kind of like in. I often get this in context of social life and work which is that you call to call? I don't use the phrase political correctness. There's been sullied by Disgusting Mouth Breather in the White House and choose to use whatever word that he doesn't use but let's just say workings. It's something you'll never use. It'd be too confusing to that. This is just basic politeness. And that's what that's all we're asking for and you you know I think that in the context of my work or anybody else's the just in a work context is that if that were true a wouldn't be always so closely associated with punishment punishment when I'm trying to make people more polite. I'm trying to make my daughter played on slap in the face. I say by the way you know. You shouldn't say this or you should say thank. You should hold the door. You should Blah Blah Blah and. There's always this thing of we're just trying to instill a sort of new politeness that you might not have heard of otherwise is particularly older folks and I say okay and maybe I'll forget it because I'm just acclimating to this new culture and if if you forget it you screw it up. Oh boy you WanNa you just WanNa you WanNa make sure that you don't screw it up and that's to me. The thing that I loathe about that idea that this is all just trying to make people act in more civilized way and I think by the way it also rests on this false premise that prior to all all this stuff in this sort of new voguish moment for it that people didn't know this and of course their companies particularly I think financial companies companies. I want to be stereotypical but I think probably bear stearns was maybe not the wokers company in the world particularly as it pertained to women and you know probably you know Jordan Belfort strippers parties and cocaine stuff. But I think generally speaking one could have achieved all of this stuff without punishing. WELL-MEANING PEOPLE I'll give you an example. I was at adds a bar. I was doing that bar crawl shoot and I met a woman who told me an incredible story which one Berridge and she wouldn't go on camera. She was great I I really liked her and she worked at this company and she mistook a young Asian woman for another young Asian woman and she was sanctions very brutally. She explained to me and she wasn't lying. She was just like this average sort of normal woman and she was like. Oh my God. This is crazy story. That happened to me recently and she was like started crying. Telling the story at a bar literally started crying and I was like your final by your drink whenever but then you buy them drinks. They cry harder. I don't know how that happened. But so like she's telling me this and I'm like you should be able to tell this woman who is like a Bay Ridge woman like just working class woman and it was. It was it. It was a company midtown and financial front but she was the lowest person on it. She was like an executive assistant. And that's what I'm doing. She was secretary right and she made this mistake and she was brutally push for it and she said there was there was the intervention of somebody else was the owner to get fired and she said the person that I said. That too didn't actually care and when Dad Christmas party she was like she hugged her and she was like they were got on great. It was someone else who was at the social gathering hurt it and reported her and sort of styles you like way and they have to of course respond because if something bad happens later you don't want with that thing on the record that you didn't respond to right it's over policing but in in a work context and I just felt so sorry for this woman because I after talking to her for like better a part of an hour I just how good sense that she was not a bad person she was just thrown into this world which all the people who work there were young and she was like in her mid sixty s and she was making a quarter of the twenty eight year olds were making and she was like. You'RE GONNA get fired because you missed this woman and she's like I. It was dark mark. It was at this thing. And there's a work event didn't know and I really sorry. And she was saying sorry to me and like data Mickey Rooney Impersonation. She did that later. She's very good at it. Uh that kind of stuff I've seen and heard Too often in this in the sense of it is true that there are people of a certain vintage that you might want to say. Hey say relatives and stuff like come on man like a Christmas Christmas dinner or something. That's normal that's how people catch out trying to get them to not say faggot again. God you know it's it's yeah I mean look I told you this is. This is giving away. The pitcher is watching the simpsons with my daughter in Bart in this episode is like that's so gay and I was like holy cow. That's amazing that this happened on the simpsons and it wasn't the first season it was like ten seasons in and I was a kid that's good. That's not a pejorative. That's good. That's a slur but I'm that's where I stop in the sense of like the person who like I talked to someone from Massachusetts. What is the most continent where I am from Massachusetts says after Anthony Shaking his head he went to school combustion? What it's is? Don't be fucking retarded like really honestly. That's very common thing and I don't want to lose their jobs because they walked into the scenario where people are younger sort of more woke and the times have changed and they didn't recognize the times have changed their militias. So I guess the point being is that is that the problem might have with. All of this stuff is that we've stopped caring about motivation. We stopped caring about intense. It no longer matters. I mean that's why you see people from the Human Rights Campaign the Gay Rights Organization in New York and DC. Getting fired for saying a word in an anti-racism seminar the guy from net flicks. Because I believe so I got five for the same thing that once. We start taking all the intense analogy out in the idea of why these things were said. That's a scary moments that's right. I think you can't control. I mean at that point. You're you're admonishing people not to say the stuff and it's like it's a magic word at that point you've given it these supernatural powers that if you utter it even when you're condemning it we will condemn you and your life will be massive destruction. It's interesting because I totally agree with with especially with the first thing that you said. which is I think in a work context when you're working inner personally with people? I'm basically willing to whether it's pronouns or some other accommodation sure sure hundred percent treat people nicely in mind for the list that connor works like promoting dolphin shorts vannes true. A huge spliff haven't seen any ten years ago it up but I just wanted to say that you can't sit that Boston word anymore. I know that it because you've been in California and the beach but allow words against the office so when you go to the party just just tell me I'll give you a list but no you know I in my interactions with the athletic I I've never Had the Pronoun Conversation in any context I've had Kids of friends who are transitioning and parents. Talking to me the about I wonder how to handle this. I wonder how to be supportive. I wonder what's going to happen. He worries about Algebra received at school. how old are these kids Like twelve thirteen fourteen around that age. Don't do a Camille is oh and even enough and unfinished them. And you know it but it's never pronouns that that those people are worried about it's it's my kid wants to show up at a new school has always presented as a girl wants to show up presenting boy not telling me one And what's that GONNA be like. Are they going to be shocked by the rough housing of boys for example when someone jumps on them and gives them. These are the kinds of questions the parents had or are they going to be accepted they. It'd be bullied not someone is going to be deferential to their pronouns and so in my work life I've never had anything even you know visiting the office and being there for years and there are a lot of new people I don't know just because the organization US grown relatively quickly in recent years But I don't know of any interpersonal conflict like that and generally like the reason people are pretty nice and get along. I'm sorry more or less. Have you met reason Peter Catering Catherine seem pretty nice. Stop right there. Yes yes I know. Why is that Thinking about the New York cab commission and stuff Because this came up with my eleven year old daughter school like her fourth or fifth day of Middle School at. I think her first math class. They're like okay cool. This is math. We're GONNA be talking about like pre-algebra do let's go around the room. What is the Pronoun you all want to be? described as and within the first week or two there was like. Hey this is national coming out week you can go over here in that corner if you need to come out and let's do come out in the corner here's Holloway. I think there's A. There's a dedicated coming out hallway coming up. I got some folks. No wonder a genuinely is like the culture in which the and I think also in terms of our a friend Gustavo Arianna the great writer for the La Times He once had a really funny observation. which is that? And he's like a fourth generation illegal immigrants. He's not himself illegal. But all of the all of his forebears at some point cross the border illegally but like he's basically a California more than anything else he's very California supercup hung out. He's a super guy but like he said the only people I ever hear used the word Latte tanks. Yeah Land Hearty Goulash things seriously zad. VIDEO-GAME LATTE TANKS WCHS HUSTLE game. It's totally spelled. Though right like yeah I don't. It's like if you know. I N X. Yeah keep going okay. Yeah he would never hear that from the actual like Mexicans work in the fields. What what fucking speaking speaking? It doesn't make any sense so I wonder whether this is a a kind of Prerogative this is a commandment this is a discussion that happens. Only only where government like Intersex with things because it's not gonNA happen naturally in the back seat of a cab in New York. It's just not going to be like what's your pro down. It might look at one version of this recent version of this and I made kind of reference. This went went when connor brought up the pronouns. And saying to people who you know we like first generation like Ben here for four years. Bangladeshi immigrants are probably GONNA be baffled by this. A recent example of this is you have these coalitions and in the United Kingdom you have things like cage prisoner and all these controversial organizations that have been very much lined with left-wing groups because they were opposed the war on terror opposed pusher. Tony Blair's foreign policy and then all of a sudden we see these things. Recently these protests that have hit a lot of schools in places like Bradford and Birmingham and the rest of it about the gay rights agenda which is set by the government in public schools in the massive protests from Muslim communities. And this is this kind of tension than the exact same thing but it's it's a similar thing is that the they're often speaking people are speaking on behalf of minority groups and the the joke that Americans American type of person that goes to China and says look at all these minorities is that you know there is a billion people there. It's just you but it's like is this is this. I think that it's an undifferentiated mass. Everybody set upon and there's white supremacy and there's and then they realized that these are very very very very communities particularly particularly when it comes to the policies that they hold dear Camille. I tape something for you today. I didn't send the yet I was in a cab. This morning in the guy was Jamaican and he was fucking hilarious and going on and on and on and I was like man all Jamaicans think just like Camille he was he it was great and he was like he was just doing Camille routine and and he was basically doing that thing. Darko capital well. He was busy doing thing that that You know like I don't know why you guys are so obsessed with white people and Black people were too busy hating Trinidadians. You don't get and I'm like yeah no I. I see what you're saying but it is. That funny thing to your to your book is that it's always so. There's an ideological kind of umbrella umbrella for all this stuff and it does it so disconnected from the people. oftentimes that it's talking about in even the people that are quote unquote representatives of that group. It doesn't mean anything to me because this class issues in class differences too. I mean I knew somebody in DC who told me very frankly. It's true story that they you got into Harvard and she said well you know. It didn't help. I didn't hurt that I'm Hispanic. I will say that somebody in her family was a Mexican Mexican and Basseterre to somewhere. That's all say but it's just like these are different things and you know when we think about you. Know somebody who hire somebody WHO's Hispanic where they're from the oppressor they're holding the whip hand rather somebody in Puerto Rico. WHO's like white people you know that are Venezuelan who you were like? I'm Latin neck sir. I'm Hispanic in Venezuela they're like the white ruling class and who job as in the mysterious. That's a different thing. That's the divide there. So it's it's we start from this very very weird point of how view people as this kind of either undifferentiated mass of minorities and within the minorities. We don't see this is why like look. This is why I always have sort of generous things to say about. Bernie Sanders is that the class analysis is far more compelling to me than than sort of identity politics analysis because I see a lot of people get hired the the do nothing to sort of change. The kind of socioeconomic dynamic a city a town whatever. 'cause you're hiring the person who's the minority whose parents are both doctors and went to Harvard etc.. But you're never hiring the kid from Brownsville. You're never hiring the kid from from East New York and this is we've been going for a minute so we should probably probably real percent I do since I'm on Path self-destruction today WANNA go step further ground earlier French French. I really have to I made the grunt in particular issue with Trans Children. Or whatever else I think. There is something weird Something nothing weird about further advancing the notion that we ought to be particularly interested in people's gender identities or their sexuality. I think that the world I wanna live in is one where people just generally don't give a shit about this and they're not interested in sort of the binary constructs or any of that other garbage and I think it's a mistake for the pendulum swing in the other direction. Essentially and for kids to show up at school eleven seven or twelve or nine or six or whatever for that. It'd be coming out day for children. I don't want you to have pride in your sexuality. I also don't want it to be a a matter of shame and it's the same reason why I'm concerned about the the particular needs of Whoa Kness. Because I think it's the wrong solution to essentially the the right sort of problem for years for decades. We've thought about these things in the wrong sort of way and now the corrective is. Let's talk about out them all of the damn time and let's continue to push it in people's face so they can be aware of the uniqueness of my experience in various ways I'm disadvantage what if I'm not I think we have the wrong prescriptions for most of these things and it's the reason why I'm I'm alright. My daughter isn't even in public school yet. I'm already outraged that you're asking about our sexualities it's also worth pointing out to you. People do and you can speak to this for our people should get mad at you. And I've seen this happen when you say you're not disadvantaged and that you're living under the boot heel of some and because of the Terry Jihad yard. They want me to fly all the rest. I want to sit in I I I want to be left alone. I don't WanNa pay for to be. I think that there are. I think it's a good thing that you know a six year old somewhere somewhere going to probably A fancy private school Can decide that He wants to show up at address arrest because he likes it aesthetically and not be bullied. Because of that I don't know how that maps onto gender identity I think it's a lot to ask a six year. Old To make a declaration about that right also a lot of security signals not to bully people also for any reason. Any reason Stupid psychopath but you know. There's this long history of Whether it's gay and lesbian kids or more in more rare cases kids WANNA wear Closed that other people think that they don't belong in a horrifically treated. I think it's a good thing that that's gone away. I do think that the idea of asking every kid to make a definitive statement about this confusing madder than most of them probably have no deep thoughts on because they have no notion of what it means to be a boy or girl in any existential sense in the laudable. Quest to make it comfortable trouble for that very rare person who does feel like they're in the wrong body a really has a strong preference for wearing a kind of close that doesn't match with their gender stereotype It's putting every kid in the position of making a declaration that they're just not prepared to make and there has to be some Middle Ground where you you just try to teach respect acceptance of the kid who's different in any way Without a making it so so I was in San Jose meeting a friend at a restaurant in one of these big outdoor malls where. There's a central bathroom instead of bathrooms in each establishment. I'm kind of looking around for it and come to an elevator and there's the sign you know the signed with Lake. It's half pant leg half skirt leg and it's it's it's that's sign with its sign with an upper down Arrow next to it and like Oh there must be a bathroom on the floor above the floor below so I get in the elevator and I go down a floor. Her and no bathroom and I go in the bathroom and in fact it was saying that everyone is welcome in this elevator which which was never questioned writer writer. But is that a thing and so it's a kind of in Saudi Arabia dos welcoming for example. This is women's. Not that's the thing and fucking San Jose but it's an example of changing Italian Italian example of changing norms so that this elevator has declared its inclusive acid- right and thereby has rendered every other elevator. I guess yes excess horrible. It's just a ratchet that like Shirley you you could go too far in a way that doesn't serve the very people you're extensively trying to help. Yeah and it's also the attempt to correct for for everything which is a very hard thing to do particularly when it's like you know I. It's an admiral goal to prevent kids from bullying other kids. And I think that people have been trying to prevent that for a long time Alanya trump and it does say -Chusetts on and and you know probably turning a blind eye to certain types of bullying which they shouldn't have turned a blind eye to in hope they don't today but it's a lot to ask you know if you're like I don't know how much I say this. There's hey kid. One of my daughter's classes in the past there showed up wearing a suit every day. Oh for five years old wearing a suit everyday for two three years and like bow tie or what was the different size. Okay sometimes look great to be honest and and that was just like the kids are like this. I mean literally like what boiling soup. That's just doesn't register your kids. Take Alex Keaton. Yeah it was like really really pre Keaton Keaton. It was crazy and then and then I guess it was probably a couple years ago maybe maybe less year and a half ago I remember going into at coffee shop with my daughter in the guy behind the counter was I mean. They're already I don't know guys. He was physically male to me right so I all I have to go on is what I'm seeing rather eh amazing that I even have to defend this but you know it's like I see but was full face of makeup and wearing something that looks like a slip and my daughter. We got coffee. I don't blink. You live in the Arctic coffee. I walk out and I look over my daughter and I realized that she's she's just like wanting to say something and I'm like what's going on and she's like what the fuck and like. What are you doing? And she's like five and just doesn't understand she knows what she sees ninety nine percent of the time and that didn't compute and she was like what the Hell is going on. I'm fearful that you know in a classroom setting that today if it doesn't compute and you have to run questioned about it even at that age it's probably said it's hard hard to keep anyone from bullying which is true in every school It's even harder to keep the worst kind of sadists from really bullying in the most awful ways when you come down equally hard on people who are just doing their best and make an innocent mistake and so if what we're interested did in is You know fighting back against bigotry that is in some sense Putting people under a terrible burden We have to be somewhat targeted like going after any problem and it to me. There's just diminishing marginal returns and everything and if you go after the people who are just trying to do their best in conflict. Inflate that with people who are being bigoted assholes. You're not again. You're not helping the people that you are intending to and remember that everybody is a bully. Always it's always always the case of the kids that you went to high school with and they weren't the cool kids and there was a click and the same thing in college that the Frat boys and the rest of it those people all came to New York and an and became bullies of a different type and this is uniformly true. I mean every day and it's like also I have an enormous endless endless reservoir of sympathy for people who are trans and a time when it was just fucking brutal and then you know but I don't have a ton of sympathy for people like that. Who who then go very very hard after people online who just are either asking questions or doing research about something or exploring something and they're just like okay? It's my turn now and it's like no no no no no you got it in a really bad way. And that's a bad thing and we all probably agree on that. But now now don't don't turn your cannons onto somebody who's who's fairly innocent. You know some of those people who have been guests on this podcast not talking to anyone. Particularly I think the person they should turn their cannons on is the host of this podcast. Camille Foster I'm the host. He's the host again trying to steal the ball from me last time around. I I don't think that we got mad. He thought I was point guard in a little bit too much. Really Dead knowledged me as the point guard and I said it's hard to point guard when you keep John Take the ball. Oh yeah that's right. He was pissy that we don't have the handles but the thing is if he's not pissing. He fucking cuts you post. You don't realize that 'cause you don't listen to it 'cause I experienced first and then feels like ha ha ha afterwards. It's like fucking me. Forty five minutes cut off franchise. I'm coming after and I have. I have Mike's House too so I just put in like wondering why you're Cincinnati. I think we should probably get the hell out of. It's very hot in here. been overindulgent tonight. We've taken full advantage of having you in the room. Connor thank you. Thank you company and your hospitality. It all I should say again and I've said it a few times on this podcast. The good ones always bring Booz Booz they care from Venezuela understand the product breaks homework. Work prepared kind of thank you for being outstanding my only complaint about Connor. He's too smart. He makes he makes us all. Look a little dumb so thank me not me you know you guys are fucking morons by by no new method of attack both.