Joaquin Phoenix Launches Rain Phoenix


says this. I'm Summer Phoenix Rain in Phoenix. Welcome to launch left podcasts space for fame creatives to launch the next wave of music rebels and also an intentional space to highlight and empower all artists. It is for whom radical creativity is not a choice but a necessity that's right thank cysts. Were finishing that statement off. It's good to be here with you today today. We have a very special title episode and episode very close to home. I'm a huge fan of my siblings and this will embarrass summer a lot but not so. That's why I'm doing it for easy so you can look at her face while I say how much I admire her. And my sister liberty and my brother Joaquin and my brother River and And they've really taught me a lot about what it's like to think outside the box and be creative and we're we've always been a little pod siblings in some ways and we've also always been incredibly individuals well all And I've been thinking a lot today about you. Know how if we follow the norm than we don't know the other possibilities abilities and what a gift it is to be alive and to be able to make our own choices and and to do the from a place of I asking why am I here and for what reason am I here and if if my path is through the creative how can I have that creative help other people through through the actions NHS and and the the way that I express it so with that in mind you know cutting your own cloth as it were is something that I I love. Seeing other artists do just taking it in a direction that they feel like expressing. That has nothing to do with. What's considered normal? Or you know if you WANNA get here here. You GotTa do this and if you want to get there you gotta do that. It's all about like what's coming out of me. What's pouring forth and I admire that a lot and so I guess yes? I wanted to talk about that a little bit because our guest today is looking Phoenix. Yeah brother Joaquin. What are the Bro? Yeah he's a pretty cool dude. Were allowed that we get to talk to him with you. What happened summer? You're in shock over there. Yeah I talked to long. No No. It's everything that you said is totally awesome and true poured forth just like you were saying and so it was just a lot to digest digest. In in the moment I apologize. I'm hearing it for the first time and so it's like yeah. It's the same sort of thing it's like you know processing. It was awesome. You're awesome all right. Well we'll see on the other side. Welcome to launch podcast. Oh Hey don't forget to rate and subscribe Bob. Follow us on at launch left route services. Oh my gosh how are you great. You got us in at a late hour for launch lonzo wanted the one of the skyline which you said you. What do they call it? Art Directed Trolleys today. Pushed it as late as it's possible thinking we'd have to start another. Dan and I was like just with the thing about it all weekend. Just ruin your weekend. It is like yeah so we saw your movie finally do came together. We all road together. Are you eating pro again. That's what happened last time. Throw and then you're pro. Oh with like and then it was disaster. My thing is it pro. You know I don't know I just I wanted to. I guess I wanted talk about joker so it was like. How do you break into that conversation? Oh brother you just go. Yeah so good unexpectedly changing the subject. Vegan Moose this there is a Vegan Mussa gave me a Rav. Oh God yeah. It's great edited right. Leave it actually because also there for the debate about you yeah. I talked about it when I went on late night. Yeah we didn't see we didn't see it he. He did his off a favor. Actually I saw I think I think I saw a youtube link of just that part right and I was like sure and and did you. Did you think it's funny. It was real. You knew that it wasn't okay. Fine are you talking about the bit. Yeah yeah the no the bit was. Yeah the bid was I showed you that I showed you that joke thing before but I saw the better. I saw the the bit which wasn't a bit. It was the truth. You were there during the debate that we had at your house after the premier that it's only only been in our debates summer just yelled at you and told you what they were wrong and I was right and it certainly. You're right. The right walking is what it in. I don't know whatever you wanted to be. I know I don't wait. But why is she right. I know what you might be right. It's your right right for you. But that's what was real. Aw hurt if you really think about. Isn't that what life is like it. Doesn't everyone make their own opinion about frigging everything even even if someone goes actually the ad no. It's not so how I think it's like most people use their own but I am usually right. See and that's the thing is it's always right or wrong versus like did like did it make you think which honestly our two weeks after three. I still haven't stopped thinking about it and trying to kind of figure out here during his podcast the other day and I was out in the wilds of New Mexico and I and it would cross my mind and I would go awaits wait so so maybe that's not true about the care. Oh maybe that's not. Maybe the whole thing is all in his mind like literally still bothering bring me in a in a good way and that made me think about it and it made me think about how we take for granted That we all have our own lens in her perspective on life and were were always judging each other based on our lands and were never judging someone based on what they're telling us is the truth for them. It's always like yeah. I know what you really mean. I could feel your real intention but in reality to them. They're thinking about it. I mean I just found it really not that. That's what the movie was about. But I. I digress well. I think that's actually an interesting point because I think that we could find empathy for anybody anybody if we were if we learned if we were if we were capable of of really like stopping and listening and learning and a lot is like getting to know somebody through the Lens of who who they are and who not only how they present but you know You know who they say that they are and I think I mean I don't know some So I if I was not figuring out on now I was trying to think of what I could say a response. That might intelligent nothing. Nothing can get yours. Yeah well great because look what you said about. It was really a yeah devastating. Don't you think that your interpretation I my takeaway is like my interpretation has to do with the people I've met known in my life that match up a little bit to the character at times a uh-huh or had horrible things happen to them at childhood or stories. I've heard where it's like you can just impart all kinds of things too you know and I think that's what I was really really. You know not to your horn. But that's to me. That's like the best kind of craftsmanship in any art. is you leave so much room for the people who digested adjusted or watch it or experience it to be able to add their their what they re. What what they feel? And there's not. It's not like you're telling them and how to feel about a person or character or anything and that and you were just really powerful. The that's nice. It's all just and good luck of anything happens. That's that's interesting. Do I heard a quote. I don't know who said it. I didn't know who said it but I don't want to say it's because maybe I'm wrong but they said the The artist is the audience. They're the ones that are really the ones does that. Make It. Are We. Toss around that word art lake's so much like I don't know feel embarrassed. I met a movie and Clyde Art. But whatever the fuck something creative and and And I think that there's a oftentimes in movies. There's not a lot of room for the audience to interpret it how they want for for it to be like their own experience. It's you know. Most movies are Are designed where the all of the character's motivations are very clear and they're telling you specifically what the movie means And I disliked the idea Eddie of like a message movie So what what. I what I liked about the movies that there was that room for people to interpret interpret how they wanted to I think there's been a lot of discourse besides about the film and and it's value or whether it has any value whether it's not interesting born whatever the fuck it is and I love of it like it's n- you never at any point of like you don't know what you're talking about you're wrong that's amazing. Somebody sent me something normally. Don't read things about a movie line. Don't feel like you should. You should have to answer for something like creative. I think it's okay not too many thoughts. I'm losing myself at this. Hopefully figure it out. So I I I read this thing. Were there to people kind of arguing. One really liked the movie Buzz Bible and other one thought it was garbage and as they it was more four and as they were arguing back and forth I felt like each of their arguments got stronger and more specific as is they went back and forth and so I was sitting there reading this piece and I was like bucket incredible because when I read the guy's opinion who didn't like the movie I didn't think I was good. Those are all strong points and then the the other guy responded he said well. This is why I disagree. That's a really really good point too. And then the next guy's argument change and so it was just interesting to see that they were kind of elevating each others. Others Perspectives and position on the movie. By having this conversation and I thought that was the coolest thing. There is no part of me that was like guy doesn't like he doesn't get it. There was one one part that I think that he missed dat that just because he fell in the movie joker commits these crimes on a on a subway and there's not really any witnesses bassoon after the the media The newspapers say kill the rich killer clown on the loose and they said how would is a real pothole lazy writing. How would how would you do would that? How would the media that he starting this movement to kill the rich? And it's like not that's precisely the point is the media sensationalized the sink and created this narrative. But they didn't know what it was and he wasn't trying to kill the rich this movement and to go on the fucking here in the media and like well how did you miss Maybe that's right so that was the only thing that I'd say well that I think that you missed the point of what that is is about right and why the newspaper says that. It's a commentary about the media And and so he missed that so that'd be the only kind of criticism that I think that You miss that point but which is a which is a really good point to make about the I think about the movie full stop because it is a commentary commentary to me. The movie was and you maybe weren't trying to do that. But it was a social commentary on on society and our lack of compaction and on and and sometimes how the news media for Click throughs and the most sensational thing. And who's going to watch or listen beef. I put this headline on it. That people do that that they make and at the same time. Like if you think about how I like to think about things in if we were to think more about our shared humanity you know and not what makes us like wrong or right which in that case. I like that. You're like yeah. I saw similarities. But there is a point to where it's like if someone has a blind nine spot. It's good to illuminate that. I felt that the film did illuminate. That blind spot. We have with media sensationalizing things that can exacerbate and actually snowball all things that weren't even meant to to. Do you know anything that the media says it's doing and the next thing you know it seems the supposed child for something. It never advocated for to begin with and that happens with art and artists and films and music all kinds of things all the time and so I do think just even commenting on that was courageous whether the mental or not I I saw that through fair and felt like ooh that's cool. Yuck and partially that's there is that commentary That's in the script. But there's also a at least with the duchess that I've worked with The movie is is like it's like its own entity it's it's alive and it's changing in ways that are beyond your control troll sometimes like it was a really solid script with a lot of strong ideas and opinions but a lot of things changed a lot about the character to changed. You know I think there are some kind of times people were. I've heard that you they felt like That the the character seems you know by the end. When he's joker that were kind of glorifying him at some ways in these seems like you know kind of cool in a way For lack of better word but it wasn't the way that it was written when he goes on the Murray. Franklin show was like a bumbling fool and something else took over when we went to shoot that. I don't really know how to explain it. I don't think todd does and it was our intention but you just follow something right you sit down to write a song you both play music and write. You have your idea of what it's GonNa be but at some point you're just in the flow and it becomes something else so some of those criticisms May. Maybe maybe it's maybe it's fair but it's not really sometimes not a well thought out designed idea. Sometimes you're just in the moment you're reacting to something thing at least for me. I don't fully understand what it is I don't really want to. I mean that's what I love about it. It's not premeditated always or created you. Have you have your ten ideas going into something and then it just starts telling you which one do you know. Well in the case of the character being progressively more mentally unstable being taken off meds. Because they can't afford to you know we can't be he can't psychoanalyze. You can't get as much like really to don't really ever. Nobody was on meds because he was actually. I mean there's like different and right but I guess that's the thing that could be any number of perspectives but if that is let's say that's the truth thing right and then it stands to reason in his mind and in a in a in a maniac Away like all that. Is this wonderful coming out party. You know what I mean so. It's not meant to be that. That was what Sarah Sarah like. That's the thing that's so difficult about or not difficult to me thought. Provoking about the film was that it was like a labyrinth that it was kind of it seemed like the character was choosing their own adventure based on where the heads you know but and the audience gets gets to do it too and so if we take anything to literally in to like dogmatically one way or this is what they were trying to say and then then it is missing the point of of of of just the expression of this not to mention that if you even let's say all that let's not talk about jokers is a long-standing super villain and slash character in comics and in the world and other films already and so there are certain elements of that that are just like part of that that story right that like is part of it and the retelling or the origin. Part is what's really interesting because you had so much more freedom and liberty but like why why didn't to me. It's like anything could have matched up for where we're headed with where that character becomes as we already know him in other films so I mean I I think that You know human psychology is really complex. And what motivates our actions really complex and we want we want easy answer who want solutions to those things because it's frustrating being human and it's frustrating seeing being things happening in the world that are terrifying because that's beyond your comprehension and so it's you know it makes sense in some ways to through to want to use the medium of film to try and control life in some ways but I I you know I think there's something thing valuable and interesting about not being able to control it I completely lost. My point is what is ringing and I four. That's a great thought. Yeah Hey no. Making a million on their four hundred gend-gender underdog character though. I found it fascinating that he he never or the way that he's portrayed traitor you portray him is never one that seems to be aware of that fight or flight he's rarely even though he is is Bash down again and again and again he still seems to. His world is small and looking down and he's he's rarely gazing to the horizon to see if anything is coming at him like. There's no. There's not that innate fear in him damn that it is that some some shit's going to go down and he's in trouble or that he's in and that was one of the most interesting aspects to me. There's an interesting I always you know I don't know but the one thing I done research about. PTSD from this other film and the one thing that I did recognize. There's a third component to Jesse that we don't often talk about. We talk about fight or flight. We don't talk about freeze and so when he's getting beat up by these kids. I'm like oh that's freeze mode like literally somebody that had suffered it kind of childhood trauma and physical abuse and literally just goes into the position. And what what is is it's an over stimulated at Migdal and that is the reason or the front. I'm not sure. Let's let's take this out so I don't know but it's basically our lizard brain right. It's the part of the old part of the rain a more online at certainly old. It's definitely getting older every day. But but basically over stimulated to make you you perceive and are looking for threat everywhere. You're just costly in this reactive. State and so they've proven scientifically when when you go into fighter flight. Your I q dropped significantly. Because you don't need higher brain functions. All you do is forgot how to get the fuck away from the Tiber Asia and so everybody fucking gets downright. And you're not you're you're you lose your ability to reason and this is somebody that is locked in that state constantly Salihi so he. He's wrong about so much it's happening he there. Aren't these real threat. So much of it is in his head so many seems seems kind of you know unbelievable about a bunch of teenagers stealing his sign and beating them up right so I to me. That's a great example of did this happen. Or is this just how he perceives the world right and so so. I think that it's somebody that's kind of locked in not that way of thinking And that never learned never learned the the the ability so you kind of reason properly to look at the world for what it is right there. Con- selene this kind of irrational state of fear. And I think a lot of people like you know. A lot of people have suffered greatly and suffered childhood trauma that they never never learned how to recover from that. So I think doubt is for me the the part of the movie. That's most important that I believe case in. Yeah but just that you know this. This is somebody that really suffered this trauma and you know it's a a lot of kids are adopted. They have Well who says without sound like an idiot or a deck but just statistically there are higher rates of of crime not because they're inherently bad got people right but because they don't have the the parenting and the right supports are some thank you And and so he's clearly a product of that world now. There are plenty of people that have those those tough beginnings And I don't know that they find their way or somehow they they overcome it. He's also a narcissist assists So you have these extras expectation that the world is supposed to treat him a particular way. you you know like royalty. And that's his narrative in his in his head so it's very to me it's complex. It's not an easy answer. It's not just right society society. Fuck this guy over. And they're responsible for his actions. I don't think that's the case. I don't think that's fair. It's just again. It's more complex than that. I'm certainly not smart enough to understand what it is The the the the calls and I I think that's goes back to what we were talking about. A little bit of interrupted you know again. You're thank you I know you don't. Nobody calmed by the fact that I literally started off saying something and with a thought everything you said there was plenty of great closure. I thought in each of your points. Yeah you may have lost some of that but I only have enough attention span for like what's happening now so whatever I've missed and then sometimes I'm paying attention other times thinking my dry cleaning cleanings left. I left at two months now and I do. They're going to dump it. I don't know yeah you know I never dry cleaned dry clean adult you tell them in all of these definitely I can see them and I've noticed that this also. This is my clean Hoodie too so I have five of them. I'm in four of them. I know dusting summers off there with a white cat before this. Thank you talking about a little bit related to what we were talking about here. which was I know as cleaning the skeeve off of me? 'CAUSE you're which was that that suffering begins with the life of suffering or right and that that comes from this idea that it is not what we want it to be right? Or what are we. Expect a certain outcome or feel were entitled to a certain reality that we end up creating the exact opposite of or maybe not the exact opposite but in different undulating ta you know in different waves we create come on guys. Let's go get in here with this. This is awesome heady stuff. Here's there's a big I give. It's so fucked up because I am forty five years old and I'm still scared of like uh of thirteen-year-old making fun of me and you're stupid of legal and so much of like my insecurity when when talking in your training these is in the back of my head. Somebody's GonNa you're stupid. What do you think shut up? And maybe they're right you know but it's prevents me so I really don't nothing. We're just here to learn and talk and chat and liars. Oh and you're gonNA like you go. There are they will show our own nephews news without listening to this. Yeah there's like I think there's like their loss. Well No. I think there's like it's it's all that might check it out. I just wanted to say you fucking but can I just say that those thirteen year old boys that are judging you and your mind in their mind. There's somebody a third another fellow peer judging them and it's literally like the the what is it. The bird watcher watched the bird watcher. Watch that that that that we're all doing that. And and what is that actually doing for anyone and not that like like everyone should be like well my opinion. Let me tell the world but it's also like why. Stop the if if you WANNA share with your friends and family about something meaningful and the whole world's GonNa Listen. You know you have to take into account that there. Are those thirteen year olds on your shoulder but maybe the right and and wife your criticism right. The thing is is that right well. There's value in criticism die. You learning about something and sometimes you have to humiliate yourself so does you have to be embarrassed to take a look at things and there's nothing wrong with that whereas we're so concerned and afraid all the time of like looking good and You being smart and saying the right thing and and sometimes it's. It's okay to to not do that to express your opinion and and they say in Buddhist philosophy difference absolute and that is something. I've heard in Buddhist philosophy. They say that embarrassment like being like horribly ably embarrassed is one of the most purifying things that you can happen to someone because it just takes tons of your negative out as just to have that naked moment in front of a lot of whatever that it's actually really helpful for you know if you if you have the courage to see life that way. It's a good thing. I think that that is probably the key component to to every job that that I do and it's why I have. Such hesitation and fear about working is because I know that I'm going to have to experience public humiliation and I don't want to because he does is but I know that like for me. Nothing's going to come of it. Nothing's imminent with the work unless I had that experience. Because it's just you have to get it to. At least I do have to place where I I. That's that's losing myself and I mean that's that's not being in character right. It's like not having control over how people perceive me or whether they think that I'm like good or talented. Whatever mean I've on every movie there's a point where stroller crews cruise going this guy getting like? How is he's our job because they're joker Aw I told you know now at this point I know it. Well one of I told talk you can. I said the last week I'll get it And and wasn't quite that but We shot the I. I don't really want to say how many weeks because it's really verisign but several weeks in which. There's maybe three minutes of that in the movie so I don't know how how long but a couple of scenes because I I went in with an idea a concept of the character. I thought it was really smart of I was like really interesting and I mean I didn't house was like I. I don't know this. Maybe this is wrong. It's hard to ruin this stupid. I don't know what to do but I found this reference of this guy this kid that was undergoing psychiatric evaluation. And and I you know I really interesting behaviors really interesting and I was like this might be a really good model and we ended up using some look. Unlike some of the wardrobe is based on this guy. But I was doing this thing for the first few weeks. Then if you saw gee we'd go wait. That's really we sort of with and you shop for that long doing that and I think you know todd and I just wanted to push ourselves like it's okay like let's not try and hold anything back because let's go for it and fine. Let's go for this and and there was a point where I shop flonase. I think we step back and we looked at that and we realized that it wasn't the right wasn't the right direction I was like. Can we see this. Are you gonNA WE GONNA cut now to this scene. This means two weeks of totally different interpretation. Basically how are you relating. Eating that to the embarrassment thing are you saying so because what happened knows a long we do you guys can edit it. But I'm sorry that it's boring. I know I'm blind but but there was a point where I realized this is wrong and I had to go into work until the makeup and hair and the wardrobe and everybody in Todd and you know we talk about and luckily he's so open and lovely and treated treated me like a fucking partner and so I felt fine with him but it was really embarrassing to go to say you know fucked up and I want to change the hair and I want to change the way that I'm wearing the clothes and some of the clothes and can we do this and to think like all these people that were working on this and had like works works really hard because a couple of weeks you know I had to admit like I was totally fuck it off and I was so humiliated. I know it's this is fucking small thing big deal to movie right when you're doing it. It's the most things and all these other people around and they're putting up with your shivers. How many weeks? I don't WanNa say and you had to say and that really was debt. That was a moment where it just like. I just was crushed. I and I don't mean to be over dramatic but overly dramatic but that's what it felt like. It was really. It was a rough two days that you made this decision on a Sunday. A and and went in Monday morning and the first two days were like I mean we were just doing it. Felt very we felt very unsure of ourselves and everything and it was. I can't believe how much this idea of embarrassment and humiliation actually sounds so much like vulnerability right just like you know which also then like looking at it with exactly something like that is which which we've talked about before sort of is you know is equal to an incredible bravery in 'cause you're walking in knowing that you are going to humiliate yourself and it's laying yourself bear in a sense and that's make sense for like this idea of purification or if occasion like the utmost appear vacations and embarrassment or humiliation. Is You know if you're a for fee the jury so I mean look at some of the reality shows Many times you have a critic like it's so obvious you have such a strong inner critic of by how I it's a thirteen year old boy royal now. This is my journal. Critic rose sometimes several thirteen year. Old Man Yeah Incredible like you do you have. I can hear you having different interpretations from different inner critics of but but the point. Well well. Here's the question. I have in regard to hitting that place where you know vulnerability Embarrassment humiliation. Is that when you kind of broke through the other side and you you've found found. It is what you're saying that that yet or I let go of one part like I never felt like riding. It was right. I think that's what he's that originally was that you lost your self so it's not that you found the character but you were in you. Laid Bare are enough to let go of Joaquin so whatever you were obviously but but it's enough to let go of love. The critical parts of the part that wants to be awesome. Wants to do all those stupid fucking ego things that we have no matter what that feels. Is that kind of pressure. And you know it's the thing that I always want and I think sometimes you're lucky enough to get to but it's letting go of that part. The view that like has time before has expectation. And then 'cause like I don't know what this is. I don't know what the best route is. I don't know what the best what's best thing is to say But I know that when I'm trying to control it it's it's definitely not the right thing because I just I don't I just can't I can't do that the way that it works. I'm dying to know you thinking the same thing I was like. Is there anyone who sits there and like map stuff out and all that and has the outcome that they that they are uniting mean. That's really and that we. I think it's just a different approach of getting to the same thing I think ultimately something what the fuck do i. It's just it's a different approach to getting something right somebody that uses Math is an artist You know a architects somebody that is rigorous and diligent bake these down. It's still still taps into that. Whatever the fuck that creative thing is right and some people when they talk about people that talk about ready song honestly? I sat down the piano and it just came out. I was the easiest thing I've ever in my life and it's like the best song ever and sometimes sometimes they're laborious and working going like I would if I altered that note. There's all right. I don't think there's there's not a right way to do it. Whatever whatever you get past yourself? And if that's being rigorous and and and yeah and studied in intellectual about about the approach that's valid And I think that you think you employ all all those different things when you work release. I D like there are times where there are times where that kind of like this study that I did the research that I did I employed employees who is important and there are other times where the research that I did did not serve me and I was wrong and I got to focused on this idea because I thought US really smart to use that that as a as a as a guide like. That's that's great and it wasn't and then oftentimes Mike. That's what I love so much about making movies is I remember one day. We went into the scene and one of view times We're kind of like had figured out this thing in my head like completely advance like sometimes if I just the trailer and like idea comes I won't. I won't finish the thought and I'll finish it once onset and this is kind of like finish the thought I win and I did it and the cat way through. Oh my God so bad so bad and it was but out of that afterwards and after. Talk to me doing I didn't love that. Has that came an idea that I think really worked worked and was in the movie that I mean as pause. Pause there 'cause that is something of an thinking so much about lately is that's how every single today I connected. The DOTS were were reversible as well so like every single wonderful moment women in my life passed through all kinds of horrible ones every single deep friendship and connection. I've had passed through ones where I was betrayed and and mutilated by by relationship. You know what I mean and the reverse is true. Every shitty situation I've ever had came out of the most exultant times minds of my life. Every great relate terrible relationship came from like falling in love with some. You know what I mean. So how how you know ignorant ignoring me to walk through life and get attached to like this is good. That was bad when I couldn't have arrived here at good without that. And and starting to see it as this like Miasma if that's the right word or like a quilt. Serve all of it. I don't know where it came from. Something for Hayes that another one. Where here's your ten must be mom? Yeah that's really interesting. Yeah that is a great point and even in the craft of of making seen that that can happen. You'd like to go there and nail this thing. Well let's idea of something being good or bad also right and and I think that's the biggest thing especially as an actors don't really have have to make that decision. It's it's what's either truthful or not right to this idea that I had. It was a good idea but it wasn't truthful and so so it seemed that it was wrong. You know that it was bad it just it just wasn't right. And so I think we come fixated on this idea of like good or bad which is connected to our ego right. We're good people think we're awesome good or bad bad good talented whatever. It's a stupid ego shit but it but I think to differentiate between right and truthful because you because I don't think I think good I think right and wrong are pretty similar too good and bad and And it was better sort of thought to say like well authentic some or the or you know authenticity or truth. Well I prefer authenticity and I thought that was a great word on your road air. She's saying hey you you are either actually in the locker room with. Because I think I'd shut the fuck up. Keep will not leave me alone. So I'm I'm just putting out in the world just putting on you right. which is what we do? Yes the so-called sober taught me that so-called literally. We're the fuck liberty now which was here right now. I mean let's call her. No I mean you know It's a ways before you said something about brave and and Somebody told me that the bravery courage really. I think it's a brave or courageous is the difference. I'm I'm trying to come up with something I mean. I don't feel like the time is right because shut the fuck uh-huh event fine just so brave is is is not having any the fear just kind of like into something. Without fear of the consequences. Courage is win win. You doubt yourself and and you fear ear. Yeah you fear that the the results and And you do it anyway and I say oh. Wow Yeah it's amazing right. 'cause I use them interchangeably and and they're not right. There's this very distinct difference And I I thought that was. I thought that was really interesting. And I it goes into kind of like the vulnerability or the idea of like doing the right and wrong or the truth. For the authentic schism read the book. Click you know and I think that something you know in some ways but also the timer time I crave and that is what are you doing with the record and you talking to me that just talking about this is a great subject. I'm happy you're talking talking about this and walking about the new record and to me it's talking to mom today and aw and she would say that lick even when you started out and had this feeling. We're talking about the reckon what you WanNa do that you were talking immune summer you know we were going on the mountain fuck her and and really in some ways. We're we're critical Nicole. Because I think that it was scary to us to write and speak for myself. You know you can speak speak. Don't speak for me but I was just going to speak for you. I was there and whatever you may have felt something that you said was. Hey this is your story you can tell your story rain. I'm not GonNa thanks for asking me. Thanks for bringing me into this and explaining it to me but ah this is your story you have you get to tell it right and you know. It was difficult for me to say that because I wanted to say no shut the fuck up go. Put yourself the box in the ocean because again you beat the world. I realize what I realized was not only that there wasn't in in some ways that it was not only her story but it was. It was a story that everybody shares in and that she was exploring and oftentimes when people will talk about things particularly kind of like death in a public way it feels self self-pitying and it feels like this kind of need or desire to be understood in felt. Did you see my pain and I think that I had this kind of reaction would would you would you. Why do you want that what you want that attention? And I realized that she wants the attention for a self that it was something that she was kind of sharing. Accelerating right and and I really think that was so courageous Because I'm sure that it was scary. You're scared to talk to US and ask Kedah Paul River. There's no way I couldn't because even though you know and I appreciate you saying that day. This is your story. But I strongly believe in the philosophy of interdependence which is like the connectivity of all things like. There's no way that this is my story alone. It does connect to you and it connects to summer two connects to mom and liberty and honestly it connects to everyone when you and that's what I wanted to follow that through fair to like what about. This is universal because I see so many I feel like my personal story is universal and I think other people's are to me like I'm like I feel something from that and ultimately I had this like the sense of. Oh well we know one talks about the stuff and I WANNA explore it. And how can I do that for me. It was just intentionally calling. It river was was I was all I knew that I was doing there was like I wasn't planning on setup all these things and start tie. It was just like if I just do that. We'll let it be what it is from that and see what happens and you know and you your openness and acceptance. When I knew believe me it was really hard to share with you? Because I'm even as private or as you are as upsetting as it is for you. I like the idea of sharing openly about what totally irks me to write like I think about about it in general from what I gather even from people who are dying or have illness or are sick or that. I've noted through through my my life of either being close to them or is that nobody wants to be seen as as a victim or predominantly sadly people even when they're really close to death want to be strong and be able to manage themselves that fear of being needing other articulating well but basically what I realized is like as a rule especially around things like death and dying or sickness or people. Will you know you want to be treated like everyone else. But my point was I wanted to explore the taboo subject of something that like for some reason. We're we're all a little bit for good reason because it fucking hurts like it's something that you you know what I mean and I guess the last thing I wanted to say around specifically that was that culturally speaking. Because it's not we don't talk about death you know very commonly or it's not supported in a culture away like some cultures do then people are sent right back to work after grieving within a sinner right back into like a situation where they are not even seeing the the world is like they saw yesterday. Everything's changed at. They're being forced into the same things. And I just wanted to like. Put My flag up and say like Hey. Hey Man. Isn't this hard or life's heart right out there and I see I see it. I don't know what it means but we can say it. I Still Don. Yeah can we say turning but I think that it also gives some some purpose or meaning to that experience experience we were talking earlier in. You're saying that it's it's You know death can be traumatic. But that's not the end of the story story and it's not just saying oh I experienced this trauma feels feel sorry for me. It's we've were all experiencing this or have in some way and we all will at some point but how can my experience potentially benefit somebody else and what the fuck is the point of like experiencing something. I'm going through it if you can't kind of share what it is maybe not even the way of my now have the answer. I don't think any of us do or any any closer to understanding but at least I had this experience and there's something about that of knowing that you're standing next to somebody else that that is had that experience strength and hope airing experience right and so that that's what you know so suddenly I I really saw the the the value in it and took me out of a way of thinking about Things away that I had for for so long which was kind of really just thinking about myself and how you know how it How those things can how it affected in me said of seeing the potential of of how that experience might be beneficial to someone else and maybe not an? That's it's okay right but no matter what again going back to what we were saying earlier you you just express it. Yeah you spend what you feel and it might resonate sneak with some people and for the people that it won't am that's okay right after Guinea saying I have the I have the answer right. Used to that left of center not very popular left-of-centre basically means not popular so I mean in many ways I realized how much through the process of making the record and through launch left in summer and I've had conversations about that. All of this is is really river. River River is so strong all of this. But it's it's not just river it's how we all grew up. It's mom and Dad. And what the kind of principles they imparted on us. And what they they said Ed to strive for which wasn't to be popular but to do the truth to be the truth with end to end to defend a defenceless beings right that being a big part of it. Well the one thing you know. It's amazing though say the values we imported to them. I mean if I think the fact that kids kids are the ones that insisted that we go vegetarian and then ultimately suggested Vegan said. Why are we just hearing? Why would we use animals? In this way we Kim began. That was because of us. It's incredible that our parents. I mean we were. You weren't even born yet right and we we were. We were such little kids and and yet we have this undeniable epiphanic moment. We saw those fish being killed. Hey listen to you. That's what's buck an incredible right and so as really really so so beautiful. Because it's not like there were two people that had this value system that that imparted us or impose it on us or even suggested it was a shared reciprocal experience right. And somehow they were so kind of sensitive and thoughtful and evolve all that they would listen to children because they saw what was it totally honest visceral reaction to something that we were missing and and they couldn't deny that I may still remember mom's face crying you know. Mom's leagues you. Go now I know you know when she can't we ask right and she does kid kidspeace us to face that she was so horrified. Because we say how come you didn't tell us that's where animals came from like. That's where that's where you meet meeting from because you get survey see your chicken. No the fuck. That is a hotdog hamburger and to suddenly see that moment we went. We fish what we've been leaving. The beach used to be that thing. That was a lot. How come you didn't tell us that it was such a fucking? We felt so betrayed right. How could you not have told us that? I remember just being so chuck embarrassed ashamed. That she didn't tell us. Why would you never curtis? She was never told she wasn't told that is going to be something that he should be opposed to now but they were immediately receptive because again it was it was wasn't right or wrong. It was truth. Yeah maybe and there was it was it was silent in for a second there. You're lucky your personal row hair was like thumbs up. You've got no it was it. Seemed undeniably truthful. You know I do think that there's something to be said for our our little pod of people in that one thing that I think mom and dad were pretty strong about was the intention analogy whatever that was once once once was coming together and and and believing in something in shooting something once okay. Let's get all our ducks in the ducks you know they were open to like. What are the ducts over? Not doing this or not okay. Cool but then once we were there was like we all were kind of on the same trajectory together and there's something to be said for that kind of group group connection or a aspiration to do something together right and I've seen that with like bands. I've had her projects where it's like when you really make it like this. This is intentional and I want it to you agree. Let's do this together that it makes a massive difference and so also the intent but what the intention was for them I think was was that they they wanted something big. They WANNA change they were they wanted a change in consciousness you know they wanted to offer a different idea. Different views a sort sort of power that that was possible. Aw when talk about courage. I mean rang mom from a middle class Jewish family in the Bronx who like leaves CBS' her young marriage and ghost. La and then did she pick up down from gave mom his number and she was like calling. But what happens when you move to a new city. You're lonely out. Of what does she called back and and now aquarium is up and now I'm in now you guys were not yet but I mean that's such an incredible store so sounds like sounds like that. It was California. She went from the Bronx. You came into the Holy Land California. Yeah I mean it was pretty Pretty late liver and she was willing to kind of Step up out of her comfort zone and and and you know. I think it's hard to remember. Look I don't even really know. But it's hard to remember how tumultuous that period was like. You're the just the well known assassinations assassinations of like the Kennedys and Martin Luther King and Malcolm X.. Within like a five year period or something we can even processed what is right. It seems impossible right. We look at our times now. They're so difficult and challenging and they are but that must have been fucking terrifying the year with the idea. If you're a product of the kind of the fifties and being a child in the in the fifties and this idea have everything's perfect and tupperware parties and shit and then they're like they killed the fucking president must have been Anxiety inducing to say the least right and so I think there was a real desperation on their part of like we. We don't want to be a part of this like whatever our parents their parents were doing and the life they haven't kind of life they were living their belief. The system wasn't standing up like suddenly the cracks were starting to show in society right. It was the fucking Vietnam War. People you you know. We came out of the idea of GRANDPA's bore was the righteous war. The World War Two. It's whatever one kind of thought about writing you have your prayed and shit and suddenly that didn't fucking exist anymore. He's no no according to SAM. He's getting water like Doc. Whatever it's Jay whatever but but you know it's it's a crazy time and she's way a lot of radical change came from that right? Yeah and a lot and a lot of mistakes also also right and good but you know now some people Desperate sense and fucking scared and looking for radical change you know people are fucking susceptible to all sorts of Shit. You'll call the guy who picked you up five kids with him. Yeah that's what happens. That's where you met such a nice way of saying much. Yeah yeah wow that's cool. What was your question sure? Let's ask her three questions number one takeaway way this number. I mean basically if you if you were a musician which you are but you pretend you're not but I know that about you and you write really beautiful songs. Uh We would ask you you know. How did you find music? And how music find you what what made music that got. You cited ago so when I was a member trying to teach guitar when I was young and it hurt my fingers and thought are stupid and it took way too much work and I was like and I drift. Yeah then there's like two lessons and then summer was a bit of a prodigy pianist and This summer and she played piano all the time and it was so beautiful and rich. I remember just like watching watching because actor. Fake things don't do it. I just watched her movement of her body lay from behind how she moved house like. Oh so one day I said the piano and I just kind of like rocks. My myself did that. So I just got like the movement I and then when I was in New York this guy It's Guy Tommy of very basic trick about figuring out accords. It's a few identify each note. And let's say you're on a D.. I think it's whole step host. Fuck you better than me and I right. And that's a major chord manhole step step whole step or something like that. I can only do looking at. It is a minor so once you do that. You could for any major or minor accord award. And so then I just you know very rudimentary can think but really the biggest thing is when I did move. Walk the line and how to learn guitar and I was just just like myself for not learning from an out like thirty years old. I had to try and learn guitar really. It wasn't until then that you picked up guitar. Yeah it was literally rob. Bono is which I court showed me a D. and then a g and then he said Oh that's court three and a half and I said so that's everybody hurts that's basically. That's the whole thing is d g and then it's like minor. I can't remember what he might name. Maybe but he showed me backcourt and so and then bought me that Electric Guitar Which I news playing acoustic at learnt so doubt was and that was? Yeah those before about guitar. I met the director. James Mangold the movie. It went on but but I I just prior. What about been working long but figuring out piano twenty three eight nine seven? Yeah no no so child. y'All it was okay question number. Yeah so number. Two what gleaner question number for dish. is What what what? We kind of know. What activates activates your are your activism? We'll have enough Yeah you do Well I mean or is that sort of the question. It's not really what it's a both end up asking and then the person can get sick but basically just with all that's going on in the world at what. What do you feel most passionate about that? You can can make a difference in your life with I. You don't move to action. Sorry I'm going to answer these because I know at times p people people have talked about animal rights and people we know there. Are there other things being involved in. I think that's kind of the most post that I have the biggest voice about in in some ways And they say how how would you. Why are you going to in pay attention to the animal rights? When there's so many people suffering you know why would you choose animals over people and I'll say I'm not to to me? They're connected. It's just about empathy and seeing suffering and wanting to stop that I'm not choosing one over the other there and it just increases my capacity to care so there's not a I think that I just think part of it is you know whatever as fucking sound super but you you see suffering in the world and you want to try and that suffering ring and and you know it's sometimes just undeniable. It's a feeling that you have that comes you now. I still feel shitty. She talked about it and saying like your activism. Because I feel like I don't do enough the number one. I'm I'm embarrassed. I wish I I did more. I try and and sometimes I guess you do. What what you can always feel like you know? I know people that are like activists like that is their life you know like they dedicate their lives to every day and you go and you stand by them and shine nine Larger light on. Not only you know the work that they're doing and they're activism but also how how it blends and meets up with with yours. I mean the pig vigils that he I haven't had the courage which is the perfect Ktar word because it is. It's like you know Zach. I don't have occurred. I said balls. Act The writer later case. Gone Your your row here by the way it just keeps rolling stone. My inner the critic of vacationing actioning in Mexico finished in a different country. This up what else Azazel. Well I know that I you know I think I said what I was saying number three. She'll still still still seeing so still seeing number number crunching numbers third. I have an answer. Here Sir. Can we call you on. That number three is who are you listening to right. Now that you would like to major ager insurance but go ahead right Dylan la question number. Three number duh right so I had A. I came in with the intention of launching our all sister. Power Group Prairie has intention changed. It has changed. And who do you got who got better than not. Yeah it's hard. It's hard to match right. It's possible I know no honestly when I thought about it when when I was driving. We're going to play that you guys don't know that I did his bit because I've got nervous and I want to do you. Guys feel uncomfortable on you know that the launch was liberace. I think he's your launch things that okay launched liberace or Bowie or Bowie. I'd be dead so Oh really no. He's not Oh yes and it's snow hair down here say something almost when it bought about the record debt data. I've listened to that I've been most affected by your record really most recently. I I WANNA Launch Rain Phoenix. I concur our and your record river because I do think I know this but it still feels different when it's in person so yeah. Walk the sentence on the way over. You called me and we're like hey I'm changing my launch and I was like what do you mean. Why are you changing your launch? Now so fucking good. It's so good and I don't know if you I know you Alexis Day in the background but Kirk Kelly as on they were. Yeah I mean. She's launched everybody. That's a musician in. La Probably everywhere knows about him but the work that you guys did together as fucking astounding and the live show that last night it was so cool that everybody was there are and mom. This is so cute. But the record is beautiful and J- it's bold and creative and heartfelt and truthful and and I go when I think about who's artists that deserves to be launched talked about and some way not that anyone we've established about the intention right but I I just only that you record so so much as yeah fricken stoked Joaquin Phoenix and Dardis. I'M GONNA launch. Is My sister rain with

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