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The following podcast contains explicit language. Hello and welcome to the waves for Thursday, March twenty eight the on rammed analysis edition, June Thomas senior, managing producer of this late podcast network team culture. She can't be with us today. So I get the pleasure of chewing over the weekend. Women with marshland shuttling who is a professor of history African American cities, Josh tan-. Hi, marsha. Hello. And making her ways debut today is my Salaam gender reporter for the New York Times who writes in her words the times newsletter about gender and women's issues. Welcome hi, June it supply-sider. So before we begin today. I just wanted to note that last week's episode led quite a few people to write into us to note that the waves bay spoke pronunciation of candidate or rooks. First name was bay rebury inaccurate. But it's just our tribute to bounces so sorry better. But you know, we talk we talk. Okay. On today's show. We'll be. Talking about new Zealand Prime Minister in the durins empathetic response to the March fifteenth mosque attacks the new Hulu series the act which tells a horrifying real-life story of maternal abuse and the latest sadly familiar attacks on comprehensive accurate sex education. Marsha what's our is? It sexist question that we'll be discussing in our foot segment, which is for slate plus members the question is is Chris Hayes use of the term ragging to refer to Elizabeth Warren, speaking style is that sexist has an here's a little sample from that conversation. I don't know how to deliberate on this case with Chris Hayes. But I do have a lot of questions as to that characterization relative to the conversation that was being had. And I think that this is about how women's tone is interpreted. Yeah, I always want to say, you'll know when I'm shy. Oaten? You can hear more by starting a free two week trial of slate. Plus by visiting slate dot com slash the waves. Plus, all right. Let's get started new Zealand Prime Minister descended durins response to the murder of fifty Muslims in Christchurch New Zealand on March fifteenth has been I feel why universally praised she literally embraced the Muslim community covering your hair and visiting mosques. She told Donald Trump that the best way he could support New Zealand Waugh's by quote, offering support and love for all Muslim communities. And of course, she announced a ban on military style semiautomatic weapons assault rifles and high capacity magazines with impressive speed, Marcia is their response to Arden gender DEA think. So this is an interesting story because I think it has a lot of layers about how deeply incompetent. The US president is and how incredibly gendered male ideas of power and leadership are in times of crisis and they're all converging. And I think that there's a lot to be praised with the response in New Zealand, and I think it's something I think it's somewhat disheartening. The fact that acting like a thoughtful human being is something to be praised. So it's this really interesting way in which I think the response is really reaction to really dominant sense that one there is an act of terror one. There is an act of violence. The leaders response is to kind of heightened people and make them more frayed and make them seek vengeance. One of the pieces in the New Yorker from Masha Gessen talks about Bush's response to nine eleven and this alternative response, which kind of moves people towards thinking about their grief and really re being reflective. So. I think that there's something really powerful in the analysis of this moment. But the other thing that I guess I'm struggling with in the praise is can we imagine a response in a moment. Like, this that tells people to be compassionate toward the Muslim community don't be racist. But we have to be really activated to fight white nationalist. Right. So I think the war on terror was animated by this really strange balance of saying, you know, don't be anti Muslim. But we're going to go get some on. And there's something about this idea of what do we do? Then with thinking about ways that we can resist white nationalism and still be attentive to the grief, and the pain that people are feeling in New Zealand. Yeah. I mean, there were it's very understandable to kind of see this heaping praise on Arden and New Zealand. Oh, the speed all of this stuff. The as you say, the empathy. I think there's also a a reasonable amount of push back from people who say, well, you know, the countries are pretty different the United States has a second amendment. However, it is interpreted and this very different size different place in the world. And frankly, you know, more of a need to project power. The height is how do you kind of incorporate that my with what Marcia saying about, you know, it's one thing to for example, as Arden is done not to say the perpetrators name. But how do we push back against white nationalism that that led to his attack? Well, like you said, you know, we are two completely different countries. But there certainly are overlaps in that, you know, New Zealanders do have that attachment to their guys a lot of it is rural. And there certainly is fewer hurdles to you know, choir guns there. In fact, I believe that they don't even know where the shooter had acquired one of the guns that he had used. When we're living in a country, like the US where our highest leaders refused to speak against, you know, the rise of white nationalism. It seeing what a just an honor has done it. I mean we are starved for humanity. At this point. You know, we've really resigned ourselves to the same process. The same reaction the same pieces moving on repeat. So just to hear something as as obvious or simple. As somebody's saying we have to fight night white nationalism. I'm not going to give the shooter the sort of especially particularly this shooter because it was such you know, it really was made for the internet. As has written a New York Times wrote about everyone's been writing about that. It's just a very powerful and simple move. And she just has such shows such charisma, but she just is. As human when you when you mentioned the 'gendering of it. I think one of the things that's been rubbing me the wrong way about some of the reporting is I have seen that you know, it was such a feminine response. You know, and I think that that being gender reporter and focusing on feminine masculine issues, and how we divvy everything up it. We're basically saying that to be human to even to have courage in this way is a is feminine. And I find that to be just to the root of the problem of even speaking about her like that as a woman and not as leader. So I think that some of the analysis of this is about this idea that as a leader Arden is a female leader. And at the same time, she's doing a lot of the work that I think people often associate with a first lady or first bows. And so I wonder if there's conversations about how her. Male partner appears in this moment, or if people don't even consider it. And so in this really interesting way where in the United States, for instance, if President Obama was visiting families in Newtown or was going to Charleston after the shooting at the mother, Emmanuel AME church. There's a sense that as a head of state. He kind of studies people he shows some compassion, but has a wife there also as an appendage. And so I think it's interesting when you have a woman leader who is who has a partner who is unmarried the ways that perhaps she has to embody all of those roles for the public. Yeah. And I just wanted to add my family's Muslim. So I feel like when this hostile environment this climate that we're in. I just felt like people around the world Muslims around the world just needed this. So bad. Wli? I I'm not I'm not practicing. But I still felt that it was such an important statement at such an important time. And I think that's one of the one of the many reasons at this has gotten the sort of has struck people so deeply. Yeah. Because it not only was it. It wasn't a gesture. It was something. It was something that felt real in that really connected with people and really made a difference. And I didn't actually cry about the shooting until I watched her embracing the families wearing the headscarf that is finally what really got to me because it was so genuine so it was both symbol on something that really connects with people, and it's interesting because you know, I do feel this needs to keep saying less time. We talked about Arden on the show when she was pregnant and of prime minister, we got a lot of pushback from listeners in in New Zealand and Australia are constantly saw this tiny country on the other side of the world is distant tiny. Country, which it is. But I'm very conscious of something to say like it's a different kind of country, but I'm really conscious that most women leaders of of not necessarily size, but more maybe countries that are required to project more power when they have female leaders there. Those women tend to be people who are not particularly empathetic like in my country, Mrs Thatcher. Or no Theresa May who whether they got into power because they were you know, they were not particularly empathetic women that they'd that. They're kind of affect their political style. You know, made the men around them comfortable, or because you know, that's just how they were which I think probably both of those things. It's unusual. I to see a leader. Who's now in the spotlight, whatever the size of the country wherever it is. She's in the spotlight people are seeing her doing these things that you're talking about my and she is. Also, stressing empathy and actually grieving actually modeling this is I feel really gutted by what happened. I am heard. I want to make people feel better. I have this row. You know, it's it's very personal. But she's also speaking very very effectively very very eloquently as well. And at the same time being so direct and being so powerful, and leading you know, she said you may have chosen us to the shooter. But we utterly reject and condemn you. Yeah. And then of course, the moves that she made with gun control. So it is a balanced that has shaken me because I just don't know if I've ever seen something like this. And it's it's true my fear in a way that she's like, no, our new internet, go friend. You know that like we have this tendency to you know, it was just in Trudeau for a minute. And you know, it's going to be just into art him for a second. And instead of I don't know. If it's not that we're we're liking these people instead of like doing something productive, or, you know, we're not, you know, we could be doing, blah, blah, though, we could beginning gun control is not that is not that a choice between, you know, saying nice things about just into Arden or getting gun control in America. That is not the choice. But I do like sometimes like it's grade. But what does that do for us? I don't know. Maybe I'm just paranoid or something. Marcia, do you think there's anything we can take from Arden's response to this incident? Like is there a lesson is there? A of a message about leadership. I think that I hope that this is an opportunity to one think about why so many of us are conditioned to non expect respect, and grace empathy and these moments, and I think this is about a larger question about, you know, yes, New Zealand is very different than the US. But what does it mean? When nations are kind of built on a project and the ways that within those nations people can start to develop ideologies and viewpoints in which they believe they belong and no one else does because I think that that does connect these two very different places and to take seriously, you know, like after we invite people to really sit in their grief right in these kind of big national moments. How we do that in interpersonal level. So I think there's I think there's tons to learn tons to think about. I just really hope that you know, in a month that we return to this. And in two months, we return to this in a year, we return to this because I think one of the things that is different between the US. New Zealand is that I think mass shootings have been if not normalized internalized as part of what the price we pay in this country for freedom in this really sick way. And so the shock of kind of what happened in New Zealand. I don't know if fully reverberates in the US because I think that every time this happens somewhere in the United States. We just kind of brace ourselves until it happens again. Yeah. Yeah. It's I mean, I really what you said about you know, it reveals the pulse ity of our expectations. I think is very powerful. And you know, the the I think I'm sad to say that when there is when there is a mass shooting. I mean, what kind of phrase is that even but we. We all know what that is just effective life here effectively. We I it's almost as if we've we've given up hope that anything will be done. We have resigned totally resigned ourselves. And it was like she was just like St. doesn't have to be this way. Yeah. Yeah. It was she was modeling action that we can directly take those same actions here. But Luke action somebody did something and the underlying causes. She spoke about the connection with Facebook. You know, the Facebook live. I mean, she really has already and just the short amount of time touched on so many of the underlying causes which is just foreign territory. Yeah. Exactly. Yeah. And she I do think again, something that you mentioned Marsha that. It's yeah. In one way, you can say, it's just words. But when she said something like, no an exact, quote, but something like, you know, most, you know, to Muslim New Zealanders, you are part of New Zealand that is a very. Basic statement. And yet it's something that is, you know, so key that when we kind of talk about immigrant communities are ex communities as if they're separate when people become citizens. They are no of the country. They, you know, you can't divide these these these groups forever. An just her saying that you are part of us is very very basic, so basic, I think that it it almost is kind of under the radar and yet I think it's one of the most powerful of the many powerful things that she said and something that again is a an international message that that can be very powerful. All right. The last time we talked to Arden when she was pregnant as I said earlier, we got a lot of rage. Emails from Kiwis thought we'd misunderstood their country. So camman Kiwis rate on this segment write to us at the waves slate dot com. I'm David plots. One of the co hosts the slate political gabfest ears right now to encourage you to sign up for sleepless. I know I know you've gotten this message before but hear me out for a second see slate. Plus, it's probably the best thirty five dollars. You'll spend this year. Not only will you get more than thirty. That's right. I said thirty podcasts ad free for just thirty five dollars. But as this late plus member, you'll also get exclusive access to private cocktail hours with your favorite podcast hosts discounts on tickets to live events around the country less advertising. It's late dot com and direct access to slate. Writers editors podcasters were private Facebook group. Plus tons of extra podcast episodes segments super slates journalism and give yourself a service actually used by signing up for slate. Plus today, just visit slate dot com slash podcast plus to sign up today again that's late dot com slash podcast. Plus, thank you. Before we get to our next topic. I just want to mention that the waves is getting together with Edward slits LGBTQ podcast to host a life show during slate day, if you'll be in New York City on Saturday, June eighth there will be no better place to have a boozy picnic brunch. And enjoy some sparkling sassy conversation with Hannah Rosen remote loan me and Brian Loda. I'm Brandon tensely from the podcast. So start the day. Right. Come to the brunch. And go to sleep dot com slash live for details. All right. Our second topic today is the act and new eight episodes series on Hulu starring Patricia Arquette and Joey king as DD and gypsy road blundered an extraordinarily interdependent. Mo the delta pair, it's based on a true story, a true crime story. Indeed that involves munch. Chosen syndrome by proxy and murder. It's a story that was told by Michel dean who co wrote the new series in both feet owned the title DD wanted her daughter to be sick gypsy wanted her mom, mud, Marsha. How does the show tell the story of the Blanchard's? So it is a multi part series that talks about the Blanchard family from. I think two perspectives the outside perspective of the Blanchard, family neighbors. Who are I think a little curious about this mother daughter duo and the Chloe Sevigny character plays a neighbor who's a little suspicious of DD and her behavior in the community. And then you get an inside. Look, the dynamics between this mother and daughter. And the lanes at the mother goes to to keep the daughter sick. And the lanes that the daughter goes to to try to assert herself. And to try to make sense of the world that her mother has created and tightly controlled. And so I think that what this fictionalization of this story tries to communicate is the various ways that DeeDee is just so skillful at manipulation and avation as well as the ways that I think true crime often operates where people have to determine whether they should trust their gut or not. Yeah. So well, put we'll return to some of those teams, my this work for you as television. So when the shell deans report came out, I I was obsessed with it Munchausen by proxy when I first heard of it. I feel like it really came into. Our pop culture, like the cultural mind with Eminem in cleaning out my closet. He mentions it directly, you know. He's a victim of my said Drome, and I had heard about it when I was even younger than that. I come from a medical family, and they're always tossing around all these terms and my house and that one really. I was like because it's so psychological, and it's just you know, you hear so often about child abuse. But this was like something I'd never heard remember researching it, so when the support came out, I was absolutely riveted. And when I heard they're making a show about it. I was skeptical. But of course, I plan to watch it. I as far as the show itself. I it's only two sentence. I'm speaking here with this. We've only we're only seen two I think the third one came out today. But I found this statically I had some problems with it. I felt like it was trying to be like a Ryan Murphy show. To some degree. I mean, it's all expletive at the end of the day. But I also I didn't I found like it hadn't really found its tone or its pacing especially in the first episode. And I also, you know, it's taking some liberties with the dynamics between. I mean, of course, spoiler alert Didi was murdered. Right. You probably do know that if you read the story, but it is kind of working for me in the sense that I think the acting is tremendous. But I I'm I I am struggling with a few few of the points. I I'm so with you. It's it's like, you're I agree. The acting is amazing to leads as we've mentioned Patricia Arquette, Joey king are spectacular close of any. It's very weird role as you mentioned Marcia. There are these kind of two tracks the Inci almost like what's happening inside the house, and what's happening outside the house, and despite some really wonderful acting including honesty, rob plays kind of close of knees daughter. So she's kind of more similar in age to gypsy the daughter, and and kinda has a bond with her, and she's also a wonderful, really empathetic actress. But there's there there too much on the sidelines, and so they're acting wonderfully. But it's like, they're they're they know no more than os viewer. So there's a kind of frustration to their role in it, and and at this, and despite this wonderful acting. It's a show that I find so hard to watch because it is just essentially it's a very sadistic kind of of story. It's a a mother perhaps because she does have mental health problems. Nevertheless, what she's doing is is physically and mentally just hurting very severely her daughter because she's not only claiming that her daughter has all these illnesses like cancer like muscular dystrophy, like, you know, an inability to consume food by most like. Allergies that cause her to give her epi pen injections, you know, in public chromosome chromosome. Oh, yes. She's making all kinds of clemes. But she is also having her treated for these diseases that she does have a feeding tube in that an infect in in the real case, you know, caused her daughter to have, you know, I- oppressions era perations, very, very, intrusive and serious treatments. Perations medicines on a you know, kind of constant basis. So this is a horrific story of physical and mental abuse. And so as you said, there's always an exploitation these stores, but this is just pure sadism. It's very very very hard to what. And when you make it entertainment. I found myself trying to compare it to other movies and shows that show, you know, mothers trading their children like you said sadistic. Ways. But I always return to the fact that this is a true story. Right. I think that's one of the things when you ever whenever you make a turned crime story into like a live action TV show or whatnot. Yeah. Struggle with one thing. I will commend the show on is that it is not only show with so many women. I mean, I'm trying to think I seen a man yet in the first two. Episode. And also the story is a story of women and girls and sexuality. In fact, I think the main story here is the suppression of gypsy sexuality, and I'm sure that the connects pound upon that quite a bit and and turning developing young woman into keeping her into like a baby doll girl. Yep. Absolutely. And kind of from enting an interest in like, Disney fide romance, which you know, big mistake. Not a good thing. If you want to kind of truly suppressed those notions in your child, but you know, an appealing view of of childish version of of romance and sexuality, but nevertheless version of ruins sexuality, and before we get to far away from the the women centeredness of the show. Also, I think five of the episodes of directed by women, which is certainly unusual. These days. Another had been some criticism about a Nick and Tosca thinks probably how you pronounce it. The co creator who is someone that Michelle dean said that she had brought on and she did speak to my colleague Eleanor Stanford for an interview that just published day or two ago, and you know, she she had she had defended him. She said I brought him on. And this show is is being acted by directed by the show runners, I mean, there are women involved all throughout the whole Eleanor was kind of confronting was asking Michelle what she thought of a view that he had maybe taken more credit than than than he preps deserved for for his role as kosher on Marsha, the why would you see this kind of very tricky line when you're kind of doing a show, that's a mental, you know, a real mental health real disease put it that way. But were the person who suffers from this disease in this particular case? Also seems to be a criminal. She's also a scammer. She is also she's maybe making her daughter sick for the attention. And and the the of rewards that come, you know, from having sick child that's kind of the nature of Munchhausen's by proxy. But she also was getting money from neighbors. She was taking trips that kids who really were sick could've taken. She was you know, she was a scammer. She was a criminal. That's it's a it's weird to kind of even though that makes them more interesting perhaps on television. That's a tough come flation. Right. So at at the risk of being so on brand M, my analysis things that I think of what I think of this. You know, I'm always going to indict capitalism racism on or what I'm talking about. So two things. So the part of. The story that I think you're right. There's this interesting way in which Munchhausen's by proxy is put within the frame that you know, d is a scammer and she'll do anything for her scam. And while that was true. I think about the real d I think sometimes it's dangerous in this kind of representation that this mental health issue that she has tethering it to criminality. I think sometimes can maybe maybe the public misunderstands what this is all about. Because I think that you know, part of what Munchhausen's is partly is the exacerbating anything of some of the ways that women are validated. And so I think about this is also a story line in sharp objects. Right. So the idea that the way that women are validated is because they're these outstanding caretakers. And so I think you tend to see this among women, and so there's a way in which kind of the social world starts to influence the ways that people and they're kind of meat. So there's kind of that one thing. And so I think that in this representation of putting it in terms of she would scam. Anyway, she could I think makes the audience less really sympathetic to this very very, you know, sad thing that this woman struggles with and I think a lot of women and a lot of people have struggled with. But that aside, I think that there's something kind of interesting to think about the ways that someone like d can manipulate the medical system because of ideas of race and ideas of good mothering versus bad mothering. And I'm really struck by just the way that so many journalists, and so many people have shared their accounts of not getting enough pain medication. The high black maternal. Death rates, and it's also about a kind of perception of a relationship, not only about empathy and pain management, but mothering, so there's this kind of interesting thing where this works for Didi in real life, and in the story because as a white woman, I think that there's certain assumptions about her deep level of care for her child that I think other women are excluded from within that framework and can't manipulate it. And at the same time. This is also a story about this strange way in which childhood illness that some of the responses to childhood illness is through these really beautiful acts of generosity, but it's like material objects that are kind of weird thing rate, and you know, just to be so me I would love to live in a world in which children with chronic and serious illnesses are provided like free healthcare resources at their families need to survive and not trips. Yeah. E R. Good too. But I think that there's I think there's some interesting politics that this film is representing but not on purpose that gives us an opportunity to think about all of these systems that exacerbate this situation, even though it's extreme well, it's not even just trips though. I mean to to to switch from me to be on brand the second that second episode is called teeth, and it's incredibly moving is incredibly. It kind of pulls you apart. If if you have any sensitive sensitivity, especially to this particular topic, but the the center of it is indeed version of gypsies live. She has to use a wheelchair. In fact, she come walk, and this is kind of one of those areas where this the interesting kind of psychology between the two of them is how gypsy. Comes to realize how much of her mother is saying is a lie based on her own experience of her own body. A MO the says, she's allergic to sugar and yet she can't eat sugar a mo- the says, she can't walk. She come what? And that's of that is genuinely interesting kind of unraveling of their of their mutual lie but night, she gets up she she eats just ridiculously sugary things teeth wrote she then needs dental treatment. Well, this is a real thing that happens in America. Many millions of kids in America have dental treatment through Medicaid, but dentists won't see kids who have Medicaid coverage. Even though it is insurance coverage because they say it doesn't cover their expenses. It's difficult to you know, lots of hurdles also administrative hurdles this is in dispute, but some you know, there's lots of charity. Care by dentists, and essentially, that's what chips he gets her teeth are affected -ly extracted. And that's that makes a really great dramatic scene. It's not quite true to what happened in the story. Although something similar, but again is like that is a the very, you know, these extreme cases are what is needed to get care in this country. And that's maybe one just aspect of it. But in Didi was a Griffin this case is very much the typical, but there's a sense in which you know, the way that working class people can get carrot is by scamming because there's no way that they could afford to get care or get to see a dentist or get to. You know, this is a weird scammy way that is actually should be something basic, and it's it's just a that was that really came through to me that like this. This is not. The way that I would expect for this point to be made. But he's actually made really really effectively. And it's it's disturbing it def certainly underscores so many issues of medical system, which is kind of a surprising revelation from the show, and I thought including the fact that she was so easy to convince so many doctors that she moved around. We've lost the charts. We don't have the records in the records were lost control. I mean, surely that happens. But I mean, we we've heard of it. How people are able to hop doctor Dr even within the same area get prescription for medication the lack of tracking and record keeping. I keep asking myself is this real is that right? And that I mean, and again is goes back to what you were saying, Marcia of like certain mothers their word, you know, is taken. And it's also about, you know, even though gypsy actually wasn't developmentally disabled, apparently, you know, whether by drugging her effectively or simply stating over and over Oshii got the mind of a seven year old, I'm because we don't listen to either children or developmentally disabled people, and it's very difficult for them to, you know, have agency that, you know, this kind of just lies, and I'm very damaging lies. You know can be perpetrated partly in the story. There is a say in the show. There is a doctor who is spacious and and in real life. There was to and it's an yet that's one doctor and in in in real life, at least, you know, there, although they not only were suspicious, but. Find some evidence that DeeDee was lying. They they didn't they weren't able to stop her her lies. You brought up the hood earlier, Marsha, but. It is kind of really interesting. Do you agree with me about like this this portrayal of how we trust mothers to kind of Luke after their kids best interest? Suddenly white move is. And how reluctant we are to give kids a chance to speak. Well, I don't think it's just trust the expectation. Yeah. Yeah. You know, kind of this is what moms do. And I, you know, I wonder about this this series because I had a lot of the discomfort watching it. And I think it not only can have sends me into moral panic about whether true crime is ethical which go through all the time as I watched the stuff. But I don't know. I mean, I'm trying to imagine if I could tolerate this. If I was watching about a dad abusing children. Yeah. And like what that would feel like if that kind of story was brought in this way because there is a kind of Ryan Murphy, creepy nece and the color palette right that they use the kind of the visual of it. And it's more in the style of. You know? Mommy, dearest like these these kind of extreme really dramatic portrayals of of mothers abusing particularly daughters. And I don't know. I don't even know if I have a filter or sensibility to watch something in which father is abusing a child in this way. I think that there's been dramatization of maybe child sexual abuse. But the idea that a father is entrusted with the care of the child, and and abuses that I don't even like, I can't even think of anything that would show that because the expectation of care isn't kind of embedded in that social dynamic, and so all of this is to say that, you know, watching the essentially like a popular series about child abuse yet. And I don't I it makes me so uneasy honestly also felt that way about the. I Tanya movie because the whole movie is is domestic abuse. You know, actually wasn't able to get through it. Because at one point. I was like, okay. I'm I've seen enough of her getting beat up by her partner and her mom, and you know, at some point as a view where you do kind of step back and be like, what am I really watching here? Yeah. I mean, I feel the same way. I I've been asking like these first episodes, especially too like, they absolutely tore me up like they've stuck with me on. I'm impressed by so much about them on. It's funny. I had not made that a rhyme Murphy connection, but that is feels very very out not only visually. But in that feeling that you often get like, this is really good. But is it good for me is actually, you know, is it demining my soul on to to exaggerate grossly. But like this is actually not really a topic that I want to sit with that. I won't to put in my head that I that I need. To have to be pondering more. And yet the war were really interesting questions. One of the things that I actually will probably get to innocent in sense. And our final topic. We'll talk about sex Ed is like this line between being overprotective and actually abusing your children or or being or harming them. You know, maybe this came across to me because I was an only child actually also had a very over protective mother who wouldn't let me cross the street, but also kind of all my teeth the teeth thing was very moving to me. So like because I also had to go through that. And that is I think often the case, and I brought up the sex Ed thing because I think, you know, certain kinds of parents don't want their kids to know some things they want to protect them. And they've truly believed they're protecting them. They're actually harming them because in the case of sex. Ed, the more, you know, the better the outcome. But there. It's often. A really tricky thin line of you know, I think I'm doing one thing I much doing another on this view of this. You know, they're almost a couple not a romantic couple. But it there was something kind of I you apart from the mental health issues. You kind of understood why d- wanted this closeness, it was kind of an Adila, you know, just the two of us kind of scenario just watching Disney movies and singing, and you know, putting in the feeding tube. It's it's a we there's a weird kind of appeal of what is again, essentially, a horrifically sadistic messed up story. And I do think that they are going to there's going to be an episode about menstruation. I'm really curious us. See how that's handled. Yeah. That's something like a part of life for many many women, and it is not something that is talked about in movies. And you know. Yeah. And it is a sign. That you are growing up DD handles that. Yeah. We'll see how they how the craters handled it. Right. All right. Marsha? You think you'll continue? What ching? I have no idea if I can sit through it. I'm Gary about the kind of creative license that they take with the actual story because I did see the documentary. Mommy, didn't dearest. I I did watch it. And I I'm curious about how they add the elements that kind of led to dis murderer, and, but I'm I'm actually very mixed on this. I don't think it's necessarily something. I would not recommend. But I don't know if I would participate in watching right, right? My I probably will. Speaking of Ryan Murphy, and I I do watch like the south night show January for Saatchi. I also found I didn't realize when I began at that. It was going to focus so much on Andrew Cunanan in his story. I thought it would be a little bit more about for Saatchi himself. And I thought I thought that ride Murphy how that while? But this this to me is more troubling on so many reasons. Maybe because the absence of the celebrity factor. I imagine that I will finish it though. I don't think I will as as impressed by by both the acting and much of the psychological kind of focus is I was just kind of too hard listeners. We've maybe giving a very strange view of this the mixture of praise and concern and just I dunno almost trauma. If you watched the act, please share your thoughts with those you can write to us the waves at slate dot com. This episode is brought to you by European accented the pink tax campaign where entering peak season here in the United States, but the tax isn't something you have to file by April fifteenth. It's a thing that women pay every single day and on average it can be as much as one thousand three hundred. Fifty one dollars a year. The pink clocks is the extra mile that women pay for everyday products and services that are targeted at women. I'm talking about baby bottles toys, hersal care products. Like, the odorants close dry, cleaning and canes. Yes canes. Obviously, there's something irrational and unnecessary about these increased prices and European wax center is to bring attention to this injustice. For more information, go to acts the pink tax dot com. That's eight x the pink tax dot com. The waves is brought to you by open fit getting fit and staying healthy is one of those things that's easier said than done, right? Everybody wants to get fit. But nobody wants to go to the gym specific time. Well, I won't go on because you already know these problems for yourself open fit cakes all the complexity out of getting fit. It's a brand new super simple streaming service that allows you to work out from the comfort of your living room in as little as ten minutes a day. Open fit will change the way you work out and with the code waves. You can begin your fitness journey personalized just for you again. Use the code waves and start using open fit your journey to a healthy life right now during the open fit thirty day challenge listeners get special extended thirty day free trial membership to open. Fit. Will you can lose up to fifteen pounds in thirty days when you text waves to thirty thirty thirty you will get full access to open fit, all the workouts? All the nutritional information, totally free again, just text waves to thirty thirty thirty. Okay for our final topic today sex education. It's a topic that comes into the news all-too-frequently. My you wrote about the latest attempts to limit access to comprehensive accurate believe we have dimension accurate sex education in America wise, this in the news again, I think we're seeing just renewed efforts to bring more comprehensive sex Ed to our to our young people. Susan Lontine, Colorado, Sade Rupp shades. Reduce the Bill the teach about safe sex consent. Very goodness. Orientation, of course, there were protests last weekend, you know, in the UK, the British government made a major change to the curriculum that will take place in twenty twenty again, same sex relationships transgender issues menstruation, can you believe it sexual assault pornography, sexting. I mean this country the US is really in the dark ages on this. And so as much of the word world, let's be honest, but with than virement that young people are living in nowadays, especially with the excess ability of pornography. High definition streaming hardcore pornography, it is more important than ever that we really reach out and kind of set sort of baseline about what young people are learning about their bodies and about sex. Well, this is one area where I'm going to play devil's advocate here because like are we just? Expecting too much of schools. I mean, yes, stipulated they are plays that are supposed to be focused on education, but given this particular topic which again stimulated is kind of key given there's so much storm in drawing and so much apparent parental opposition to communicating basic information. Is maybe we should like, and it's not like schools are the only place that kids get information. So like, maybe are we putting too much emphasis on schools, given how easy it is to find information. But everything these should we just not give up on schools. But is this a fight that we need to keep having? Why why does it still much about? I think such I think it is a light that they stop and because students they spend most of them Georgie of their time in school. It is a place where they get information. It is a place where they develop, and if it's a place that, you know, most all students are going to from home to home. The variables are are so dramatic, and you know, I think in an ideal world young people will be getting this information from their parents that I think would be ideal. But that is not the situation. I don't want to say for most most young people. But I I would say certainly for a lot. And we're also talking about that bring this out of the dark ages. It was sex education does exist, but it is so highly flawed, you know, Susan teen had said, I'd rather them not gets education schools at all then get the wrong education. So I certainly see that perspective. But to just give up on the place where young people go to learn. And this is one thing you are not going to learn here where they're interacting with their peers, and where attractions happen and all the stuff happened takes place in school, one of the things that I I mean, I know I kind of we've talked about this before. And I I like put a funny intonation when I was speaking earlier, but just the fact that there's a such a small group of states where there's actually any compulsion to give accurate information just the notion that it's okay in. Schools to give inaccurate information on any topic is just bunk. As bananas only say thirteen states. Require scientifically medically accurate sex education. I grew up in a small town in Kentucky. I did how sex edge which was abstinence based it was one day. They basically terrified you and then told you not to have sex. Maybe it was two days in the entire life of school. Yes. And it hip place in eighth grade. And you know, I went to school where pregnancy was very common. I mean this. This was one of those towns where it's was very it was didn't even surprise you. If you have your classmates were pregnant, in fact, the before I attended the school which was in the mid nineties just prior to that there was a nursery in the school. So it's not affective. And you're you are really robbing young people of the opportunity to succeed when you know. I mean, these people people are young people are going to have sex if they want to to give them no information whatsoever. It's also highly highly religious area. So. So not likely of light the chances of getting this information at home. You know, it was pretty slim. Okay. I'm gonna stop playing devil's advocate. Marcia? Have you been revving up here? I was talking nonsense. I'm curious about your perspective as a historian is this a historically bad time for sex, Ed, or are we actually doing betcha? Because at least we acknowledge the existence of sex. I'm really curious how where we are in the. Yeah. So we're doing really bad historically. So something to keep in mind. And this is something and teach about when I teach on various topics about other the history of education or the history of you know, sex and race in the United States. So the reason we have sex education in school is because there's a sense that public schools have a responsibility to educate children in certain kind of values about citizenship as well as their responsibility. And so just like we have constitution tests. We have kind of standards and requirements for what students need to learn in order to be functioning members of society who can. Tribute to the common. Good sex education comes from that same kind of framework, and there was deep concern about the spread of sexually transmitted infections early twentieth century. And so in many ways, I think sex education was probably more progressive and thoughtful during the kind of inter-war period of you know, after world were one and around World War Two because people were really concerned about people spreading disease, and so early sex education was pretty good in terms of thinking about giving young people information about disease because they believed that the spread of sexually transmitted diseases. Undermined the kind of strength democracy. They were concerned about young men who were in the military and teenage women having sex with them. So there was a kind of a clear understanding that this was about a general public good. And then I think the fight over. Over the morality questions of sex education, those emerge in the nineteen sixties and seventies. And I think that they are very much a backlash against a kind of fear of free. Love some of this is about anti-communism some of this is about an obsession with normalcy at mid century. So they're many ways in which sex education is actually an issue that moves across the spectrum of being kind of more open to more closed. What I think is interesting as I attended Catholic school in the eighties and nineties and while sex education wasn't comprehensive. There was a recognition of aids because people were concerned about aids in a way that I think some of that concern has shifted people were really kind of grappling with how do you talk to students about HIV? Right. And so I think there's an interesting cultural shift that happens that I think is tied to. A lessening public concern about HIV transmission as well as the privatization of schooling. Right. And so I think that when you have fewer and fewer public schools and schools that are using these alternative models of governance. I think it opens up the space to play with sex education. And I think the last part is the incredible organization of the religious right in making not only abortion access part of their political agenda, but also influencing schools, and I mean, here's the thing someone's making money off of this. So it isn't just that schools are not doing comprehensive sex education. These third party contractors are creating these abstinence only or absence based materials, and they are selling it to school districts, and they're doing the programming's and these speakers are coming in and talking to students in public schools. So there's an entire Konomi behind this that I think people have to be really vigilant about because it's not just. Kids aren't getting sex education. They're getting something. They're getting a form of education that is privatized and contract schools. Definitely. Well, I did want to bring this back to the topic of pornography, which I really think has completely radically changed the way that I mean when I was growing up, and it wasn't that long ago to view a naked person or to act of sex. Was you at the go about all these different ways? I mean, it was not available, and, you know, Maggie Jones for New York Times magazine that the big piece law talked about on the show. Okay. Yeah. And I mean, the quote me that's what stuck out was from a young young, man. A boy who said there's nowhere else. Learn about sex than pornography and porn stars know what they're doing. I'm you had mentioned, you know, there's so many other places that that that children can learn and sure there are wonderful resources online. But if you is a teenager going. Google responsible sex education and read those go to the more boring websites or they just go. And or the is it going to be kind of inflicted upon them by somebody being like, hey, watch this. And then, you know, I also think that that's a big problem when maybe once in back in the day, somebody would open up a centerfold, and that would be your first exposure. But now, I exposures can be can be something really troubling Marsha. It's really interesting that you, you know, you mentioned the the kind of the the forces of of conservatism in a way because it's just so striking to me that you know, conservatives see sex education as government overreach, which is you know, an intern. I see their rejection of scientific medical medically accurate six -cation activism overreach. I'm I'm just in a sense impressed by their effectiveness. I mean, the fact that. So few states require sex education. It's all require accurate sex education. They have been incredibly effective again, just to go back to the previous topic in the name of protecting their children when in fact as been clearly established actually getting the the more, you know, about sex, the more, you know, about T is the more, you know, about consent the less likely you are to become pregnant in an unwanted way. That's an unwanted time. Well, also, something that I don't think is coincidental that at the moment in which people are deliberating how they're going to if they're going to, but they don't integrate schools. This is also a really important inflection point in trying to reduce sex education in schools, like these things are not incidental, and one of the things that I think is really fascinating about these. Debates about sex education. I can't think of an environment that is so aggressive and its promotion of heterosexuality as particularly high school if it were up to me if I were Queen of the world dances. There would be no funny business. Teachers would not talk to students about like who they're dating. There would be no prom king and Queen. There would be no sweetheart Princess, everyone would come to school for four hours. And then go do something else. I mean, there's this way in which there is a sexualize social culture of school and a lot of that explodes in the nineteen fifties. And this is why I think a lot of attempts to integrate schools or to question kind of what's happening within the dynamics of schools. There's this really strange kind of duality that on one hand so much about school is about about sexualizing kids and their social world. And then. Also being really silent about sex. Well, don't even get me started on the header normativity of school. Well as somebody who only experienced American highschool through television. I can tell you that in American high school. There are five minutes of classes, and I think about forty minutes of downsize every day. That's that's how it seems to me an also shards say if I were created the world, I would make you will then I would step time. So you're gonna make a appreciate that. Yeah plan. Okay. Well, we I think this is a story that we're gonna be talking about forever. This kind of push to control and confuse children in school. And since they don't stay in school forever, forever listeners. If you have thoughts about six -education, like if there's a way to make sure that people get accurate useful comprehensive education about sex consent, and well the human body, please write to the waves at slate dot com. All right. It's time for our recommendations. What do you have this week? Marsha I recommend an autobiographical novel in verse of the summer of dead birds by Ellie Leib gun who is television writer poet. Heinous her she she also wrote this very funny memoir about gambling addiction. Call to. Dental scene in it. Yes. I'm john. So from feminist press the summer of dead birds just came out, you should get a copy. Thank you for that recommendation. I had not heard about her new book Maya. My recommendation, and I'm sure you have heard about it is her body and other parties has this been recommended yet. A some time ago. But, but that's okay. We do. It's that's no word. That's how good it is. Yes. By Carmen, Maria Makoto, wonderful what I would call feminist horror. Really queer. Her writing is remarkable. It's textural. It's colorful, it's warm and at the same time horrifying, and is able to kind of balance the sustained dread with warmth, which is just not something I've ever felt the sort of literature completely fresh, and it's it's it's short stories, by the way, so y'all to your committing to six hundred pages or anything, but it is just brilliantly smart and completely creative. And like nothing I've ever read. I highly recommend it. You know, something that despite many many recommendations, I've still not read. So I'm gonna move that up. My pile. I am going to recommend a movie. Everybody knows total seven by directed and written by Esca haughty. But it is a Spanish movie, effectively, it has Penelope Cruz, heavy about them and the great Argentinean actor Ricardo Duggan. It's a boats store immune and despite having an despite having an Iranian writer director being about spin. Actually, I shouldn't say despite because it's really about going back, which is something that I think that everybody who has left their country kind of has feelings about. So it's a very emotional film, which is films like a separation or the salesman often are is about kind of going back to a place effectively and kind of in something that you wanted you wanted to go, but you want. To to be in that place. You wanted to be with those people you wanted to bring the new you to there, and yet things turn to hell, this amazing, wonderful wedding becomes a scene of absolute not horror, but fear, and you know, a worst case scenario, there's a kidnapping, and it's just it's it's a despite that kind of very tense subject matter. It's very beautiful. It's it's really about emotion. It's just a fantastic movie. So everybody knows. All right. That's our show for today. Thank you so much to our production. Assistant Alex Barish to our producer Danielle Hewitt, and you can tweet to us at Dr m chaplain and that my phone to score underscore Salaam and June Thomas for mush Amaya, I'm June Thomas the waves. We'll be back next week.

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