Did Attorney General Barr mislead Congress?
If in fact, a proceeding was not well-founded if it was groundless proceeding if it was based on full Saleh Gatien's, the president does not have to sit there constitutionally and allow it to run its course the president could terminate that proceeding, and it would not be corrupt intent because he was being full Slee accused good morning and welcome to AM joy. Well, we've got a lot to get to this morning including Donald Trump's brazen phone call with Russian president bladder Putin. Where not surprisingly he did not confront Putin on Russia's interference in the two thousand sixteen election, but he did get a smile. So that's nice, but we start with what you just heard from attorney general William Barr this week that is everything you need to know about his view on obstruction of Justice. Namely that essentially a president at least a Republican one cannot. Commit bar is among several legal minds on the right to hold a particular view about presidential power based on the theory called the unitary executive theory. According to politico, supporters of the notion of unitary executive argue that the constitution grants president's broad control, the executive branch to take a salient Trump era example, the power to fire FBI director for any reason at all. And apparently, according to William bar any reason includes to stop it investigation of himself simply because he thinks the investigation is unfair. If that sounds familiar I refer you to Richard Nixon said to David Frost after he was forced to resign from the presidency. There are certain situations. And the Huston plan that part of it was one of them where the president can decide that. It's in the best interest of the national something and do something illegal. Well, when the president does it that means that it is not a legal definition, exactly. Joining me now is called Butler, a former federal prosecutor MSNBC legal analyst Ryan Goodman, a professor of law at New York University and Walter Dellinger law professor at Duke University. Thank you for being here. Mr. Dellinger, you're not at the table. So I will actually go to you. I I'm politico has posted a piece called is titled the real reason that Bill bar is defending Trump, and I'll read a bit of it bar made. His first imprint in the battle as head of the Justice Department's office of legal counsel in the George H W Bush administration where he authored a controversial memo giving the FBI the right to seize fugitives abroad, without consent of the foreign government in question as deputy attorney general he told George H W Bush he had the power to send US military forces into Iraq. Without congressional authorization is what we're seeing here. A an attorney general who simply believes that president essentially has absolute power, and that he cannot truly be checked by congress. Well, yes, I think that's I think that's right. Joy. The the view that has been put forth by attorney general bar, his constitutional theory of that a president cannot commit obstruction of Justice or that no one should inquire into the president's motives for exercising. One of his article two hours on he was really thoroughly demolished in the report of of Robert Muller who says that what kind of country would we have if the president had card Mancha's to unlimited authority to interfere with investigations as long as he did it by the use of firing hiring, pardon powers, and and similar article two powers. But I think it goes beyond his constitutional theory because he is also shown I think that he is being simply disingenuous in his defense of the president. He has made arguments, which he can't reasonably believe, let me just give you one example. He said that there's a difference between firing. Muller and removing him for conflicts of interest. Well, there would be a difference. If there were any plausible conflicts, but when you read the mall report, the idea that Muller had conflicts is just land. So that he's making up an excuse defending the president that is embarrassing -ly. Unlike in different from the facts on the ground. Yeah. And Ryan Goodman, you've written a lot about this about the history of William bar vis-a-vis, his views of at least Republican presidential power. Is this a man who is one of two options here either he's just being ROY Cohn that he's just for whatever reason decided he's going to defend this man, come what may even at the risk of destroying his own credibility as as as a lawyer or he really genuinely believes that presidents are a superpower inside of the federal government and cannot be checked by congress soon strangely. I think it's both and some we're seeing as well. I think he has his extreme version of the president's power even making other unitary executives blush. It's like executive power on steroids. Yeah. And the there was actually an expert in the nomination hearings. Who warned the Senate about him and said, this isn't just the usual unitary executive power. It's abnormal. It's novel in what he's trying to say. And it's imperial executive power. So I think he has that vision. And this is his opportunity to make good on it because it's a president. That's not going to constrain him one bit at the same time. I think he's ROY Cohn because he is making factual arguments as though he's the defense lawyer for the president. And that's about the fact it's not about any constitutional theory. And he's making the facts, and he's twisting, the facts, it's also deception towards the public and the public should be his client, not the president and his personal capacities. That's the problem. So there's the corruption of his office problem. The problem that Tina to what you just heard Ryan he's essentially corrupting office in order to be Donald Trump's lawyer. But there's also the bigger picture because we have to remember the Iraq war and this previous version of the unitary executive theory. But essentially said the president can allow torture to take place, and that that is okay that the president can allow almost anything to take place the the ability to declare war has essentially been stripped from congress during the George W Bush administration, we saw this inaction. But even then you didn't. Have an attorney jail even out Bertans on us. It was off firing attorneys wasn't doing this. So this is this extremist theory that right wing politicians judges scholars have so think of people like the late Justice Scalia Robert Bork. The idea isn't really a whole lot more sophisticated than what we heard from president Nixon. If the president does it it's not illegal, and so Barr said that President Trump could not have obstructed Justice because as the attorney general as the president he has the power to stop any investigation. And so when Senator here is what about those ten acts of obstruction? That were outlining the Muller report bars debt. Well, the president was falsely accused so he could in any investigation that he wants, you know, the most extreme example of scholar was asked who holds this bizarre theory, look at the president order the torture of child and the scholar John you let me call his name gas. Well, it depends on why the president would. Order that. And that's the guy who authored the torture memo, the infamous torture memo another unitary decorative guy during the George W Bush administration who then gets hired to a tenured position teaching law. I think at Berkeley, right? So I mean, it's not as if these guys are ever, there's no there's no cost to it that they're putting forward an idea that would essentially end says a Republic is that not a king is what Paul just described not a king imperialism and talk in a certain sense that what the king decides to do is lawful. He can also end an investigation. He can start an investigation. Well, that's what we want to go next. Let me Walter del before we go there, actually, I wanna read a quote because people do forget that this guy got confirmed after he wrote a memo essentially auditioning for the job by saying I'll be ROY Cohn. I will do this thing for you. Because let me just tell you right now. The Muller investigation is not legitimate. He writes apart from whether molar a strong response from whether a strong ineffectual has Muller. A strong ineffectual basis for doing so molars. Obstruction theory is fatally misconceive his I understand it. His theory is premised on a novel in legally unsupportable reading of the law. Moreover, in my view, if credited by the department, it would have grave consequences far beyond the immediate confines of this case do lasting damage to the presidency and to the administration of law within the executive branch that was written in June of two thousand eighteen before he knew what Muller's theory of anything was because there was no Muller report. Walter dellinger. Did this man not telegraphed to everyone in congress that he intended to turn Donald Trump into an unchecked unitary executive? Well, I think we knew I think we do half of it joy. As both. Ryan Paul have noted one half is his rather extreme view of of presidential authority. The other have is his willingness to bend the facts into be consistently misleading and the president's defense. You could have a principal execution of unitary executive theory. But we can come up with numerous examples. So his letter just press conference where I think he has been deliberately misleading, and that is is a whole nother aspect of what's going on here and one that you know, pervades the entire administration dot just just bar their refusal to comply with with requests for information from congress. Is I think shocking given the role that congress was not to be merely Coequal branch, but really the primary branch of government. Yeah. That's exactly right. Paul butler. We now have Jerry Nadler who is the chairman of the House Judiciary committee threatening William Barr with contempt. There is a deadline looming for multiple things actually do to congress on Monday, including the tax returns are due Bill bars, the provision of testimony from the White House counsel, former White House counsel, Don mcgahn at this point. The administration is saying we're not doing any of that. We're not gonna we're just going to ignore congress. What remedies does congress have? So congress has a range of legal options including holding the president in. I'm holding the president or the attorney general Incan tip in theory. They could make them go to jail if they could only find someone who could enforce that law. They could also impeach the attorney general so these are legal options, there's a different political. Question about whether the determination will be that. If it seems like they're solve focused Dylan the mother investigation that that won't be in their best political interests. We'll have to wait and see what they do, you know to Ryan's point earlier about the president being able to order investigations under this bazaar unitary executive theory. Senator here is asked bar at the hearing on Wednesday has the president order you to prosecute anyone. He did not answer that question. So we already know the less. I'm the Senate the bar was asked a question that he didn't answer. It was did you give the mother report to Trump's attorneys before it was released to the public. He didn't answer that question. We now know that he did. In fact, released Muller report. So it wouldn't be surprising. If in fact, the president has ordered the attorney general to prosecute people and bog giving his bizarre extreme right-wing views might have said, yes, sir. Mr president. I mean you already. Already know that Lindsey Graham and other Republicans are planning to investigate people on Donald Trump's behalf. I mean, their subordination Trump is total at this point. They are not independent actors. They just do whatever they think Trump wants you've had Lindsey Graham telegraph, and you have the Trump campaign actually, sending out text message promoting this to their to their supporters. We're gonna talk about that later in the show. But in theory, how far could embargo could he go off and try to arrest? Former FBI officials to try to punish them for investigating Donald Trump. Does he have the power to do that? Here's the pair of the state. So it's it's he has that power. And he and he seems to have the inclination you seems to have inclination. I remember from the nomination hearing the very first exchanges with Lindsey Graham and Lindsey Graham goes through the litany of people he wants investigated and each time Barr says yes, yes, yes. I'll do that. I'll do that. So he's being tasked with this from the very beginning. And now we see at manifesting and Walter Dellinger congress do about that if congress wanted to put the brakes on political prosecutions, right? I mean, anybody who remembers Mobutu Sese Seko or other countries where the partly opponents of the of the president for life get prosecuted that happens not usually in the United States. But if that starts happening here if Donald Trump is saying lock them up. I want people locked up and William bar starts doing it. What can congress do about that? What can at least know congress house, the Senate won't do anything? Well. The house is actually a very weak position on that particular question because there's a lot of there is a long tradition of executive branch independence when it comes to carrying out criminal investigative functions. Without you know, congress fearing and saying here's what you should. Or should not be investigating. But I don't want to diminish. I think how extraordinary and distressing. The present moment is because you have what we're talking about. Now, the fact that if there is Russia in a Fearance in the twenty twenty election of the attorney general has sent and the president has sent a message to anybody in the counter intelligence establishment of the FBI that if you start to investigate leads it showed that the Russians are attempting to re-elect Trump. You will find yourself investigated. You will find yourself called in front of congressional. You know committee, and when you couple that with the shocking fact that the president I states refused yesterday to defend. The United States by a by a serving to Vladimir Putin that he should stop doing this or face sanctions. The combination of those is extremely distressing and depot opening the door. And warning the guards to stand down. What a situation we find ourselves in all the right back. Right. Walter dellinger. Thank you, both very much and coming up speaker Nancy Pelosi. Thanks, Trump's attorney general crime. So he's going to do something about that. That's next. Hi, it's Katy Tur want to keep up with MSNBC while you're on the go subscribe to the NBC daily newsletter. You'll get the best of what you've missed or in this unprecedented. Era of news, text MSNBC to six eight six six to subscribe. The thing is you put this out there. I mean, the president went out and tweeted the next day that he was exonerated that wasn't based on anything in the mullahs report with respect to obstruction of Justice that was based on your Cessna that was on March twenty fourth. And now you won't elaborate at all as to how you reached that conclusion Muller. Support your conclusion, I don't know whether Bob Muller supported my conclusion that exchange between Senator Chris van, Holland and attorney general William bar, it's from April tenth and April tenth hearing about the Muller report. We now know that two weeks earlier on March twenty seven Robert Muller's sent a letter to bar expressing frustration and concern with the way bar characterized. His report leaving congressional Democrats are one obvious conclusion. Madam speaker, the attorney general commit a crime. He lied to congress. He lied to congress. And everybody else did that it would be considered a crime. Nobody is above the law, not the president of the United States and not the attorney general being the attorney general does not give you a bath to go say, whatever you want. And it is the fact because you are the attorney general. Go to jail for it. There's a process involved. Public back with me. And joining me now is David corn of mother Jones in tasha bear Trond of politico. Think of being Herman stay with you for second. Paul my legal eagle at the table. I wanna play one more sound bite that was even more blatant than the one. We just played from Kris van then Han, then it's from congressman, Charlie Krista, Florida. And this is Charlie Crist on April ninth day earlier where he where he asks William Barr a very specific question here. It is. Reports have emerged recently general that members of the special counsels team are frustrated at some level with the limited information included in your March twenty four th letter that it does not adequately accurately necessarily portray the reports findings do you know what they're referencing with that. No, I don't I think I think. I suspect that they probably wanted more put out. Okay. No. I don't know. I don't I don't know Charlie Chris s very specifically that these hearing people that Muller team does not believe it at that his letter Accu adequately or accurately necessarily portrayed supports findings. Okay. Now, here's the letter March twenty seventh is when this letter is dated and it says from Muller the summary letter, the department sent to congress and released to the public did not fully capture the contests nature and substance of this officers work and conclusions. That's a lie is it perjury. And if it's perjury who's gonna do something about it. The attorney general of the United States is gone gangster the times that he's not ignoring congress in it subpoenas. He's lying to congress. And so yes, he was as did you know that the mole team was? Was upset was angry about how the way you about the way that you care to rise the investigation, and he said, no, I didn't that's a lie because we know he knew that Muller written a letter making that complaint, and he has the worst kind of most legal Listrik defense. He's defenses. Well, I was asked about Muller's team. And I knew that Muller was mad. I didn't know that teeing was met. That's perjury. Robert Muller this pudding people imprisoned for wine to congress. The attorney general of the United States has lied to congress if he were treated like any other witness he will be on his way to jail where former prosecutor if a if you brought someone in for questioning or law enforcement brought them in for questioning, and you ask them were you aware that person X disagreed with what you said, and they said, no. And then a letter turned up showing that was a lie. Would you prosecute that case? Absolutely. And you know, what if it were regular person? I would do it. If it were the attorney general of the United States, he should be held to a higher standard. He is the nation's chief law enforcement officer. So this isn't just about the the illegality the criminality of lying to congress. This is also both the constitution. It's about checks and balances it's about whether the attorney general of the United States respects the rule of law. Prosecute him. I mean, Michael J. He lied to. I mean, he's going to jail for three years. Okay. Who could prosecute layabout for this? There's nobody as a practical matter, there's nobody who could do federal crime. He's the head of federal law enforcement after he's no longer Torney general, you could be let let's broaden this out just a little bit David corn. There's a lot about William bar even before he took this job should have raised huge alarm bells. Huge to say nothing of his addition letter where he basically said I will. And this essentially, I don't believe this Muller investigations legit that should have been enough. Always there's more. There's a lot more. Should it be at issue that Muller himself has a family member who's advising Donald Trump on legal issues? Why did it not come up during his confirmation hearing, the his son-in-law has a job advising the president on legal issues? Here is a bit from Vanity Fair. This is February two thousand nineteen the husband of bars youngest daughter has been hired as an attorney in the White House counsel's office where he'll advise the president the executive office and White House staff on legal issues concerning the president and the presidency, and I want to note that we did reach out to the Justice department and to the White House for comment on whether or not this is a conflict of interest. We did not receive a response. Why is this not being made more of an issue? David corn world, surely should've when bars going through his confirmation hearings. And and that we see a couple of Democrats who supported him sit. Oh my God. If I knew then what I know now. Well, a lot of us did no because. For decades. He is talked about, you know, the president having what we would consider undue power. And of course, he was involved with the pardons during the Iran contra scandal, which was the final did of that cover up. But I think the larger point here is that basically Donald Trump said what he was trying to get rid of sessions that he wanted ROY Cohn. He didn't want the best attorney general vailable, the best legal mind available. I want ROY Cohn. So it's clear from the start that whoever he hired. He had feel assured that this person would care more about Donald Trump and his powers than the constitution and the American public. And so to that end nothing that bars. Doing is surprising. And what we see here is a Trump plate classic playbook that the mall report is a gigantic scandal show. Shows that Trump lied about dealing with Russia show. He lied about the Russian attack and show that there were serious interactions, whether you call it collusion conspiracy, and certainly not a crime between Trump world and Russia tremendous scandal. And what are we talking about? Now, we're talking about not that the new scandal. Which is the Bill seems to have lied to congress. This is what they do as soon as they get caught with something they act so beyond the pale that create a new scandal and our focus on justifiably moves to that. But barr. This is the best cover up of all we're not talking about the Miller report contents. You have a William Safire did call the cover up general didn't he let's go to another issue Natasha time because I feel like William bar telegraphed who he wants, you know, and the great Maya Angelou said when someone tells you who they are believed them, and he'd spit trying to tell us that he was ROY Cohn. They didn't that was tension. But he also might be more conflicted than just being what for whatever reason lack of Donald Trump, April fifteen. Eighteen piece in Newsweek questions should William barbecues himself from the mullahs report legal experts say attorney general's ties to Russia are troubling bit of that a few of bars previous employers are connected to key subjects in the probe. And some argue that even if bar didn't break any rules. His financial ties to companies linked to aspects of the Russia investigation raise questions about whether he should like his predecessor Jeff Sessions recused himself. Obviously he didn't. And he's not going to recuse himself even on the other fourteen investigations that he has the power to interrupt or end has anyone on Capitol Hill on the democratic side began raising questions about whether William Barr himself has too many conflict to be involved because there are still fourteen other investigations at the American people have invested interest in. I don't think that they've had to raise questions about this just because the other questions about his conflicts of interest having to do with the memo, of course, that he wrote for the president back in twenty. I can't believe it was last year. Twenty eighteen is so much of a conflict of interest in and of itself, but it certainly does raise questions, right? I mean why why weren't these issues presented during his confirmation hearings? And I just wanna go back also quickly to the question of his many conflicts of interest having to do with people in his orbit dealing with the White House something that's gone very much under the radar is that his chief of staff right now. Brian rabbit actually worked for the White House legal counsel for roughly year and people who have pointed to his son in law working in the White House. Now have actually said that bride rabbits role as his chief of staff is arguably much more problematic than even his son in low working in the White House counsel's office. So that is I think something that we need to watch for and then with regard to the the legal lease that he couched his response to to lawmakers in earlier this week when he said, well, I didn't know that the Muller report that Muller's team that Muller's team was angry rather than Muller that doesn't make. A lot of sense either. Because if you'll recall he called the letter that Muller road snitty, and he said that a staffer must have written it. So clearly there was some kind of awareness there that you know, if not Muller than at least his team was angry. But but Bill bars conflicts are very much out in the open. And I think that Democrats now are just figuring out how they're going to move forward perhaps with contempt proceeding, and whether or not there's going to be a way to hold him accountable for this real quick David Cohen before we go Ellie doll was on our show on March twenty third and he asked very pointed question, he said twenty two months of investigation and two three weeks after billion bar comes on the scene. I know that Rachel Maddow has asked this question. They're looking into it as well William bar and the Muller investigation. Is there any reporting that suggest he may have come in and landed the plane to use a phrase? There's speculation. But I do believe that in the letter that Muller sent or in other ways, we did see some leaking very little leaking out of the moa people at the end that if they felt they had been pressured to conclude business before they had finished on their own account. I think we would know that. But this is certainly one reason that Democrats and others, I would hope others, but maybe not wanna bring more to the hill and something Tenley scheduled for mid may. And that's a great question to ask them right there thousands of questions, and that's one of the top of the list. Let's see if we will ever get to hear from Robert Miller, and if you ever get to the hill, thank you, Paul Butler, David corn and tasha we back in our next hour coming up, Donald Trump phones, a friend or shouldn't say comrade. And as we go to break, take listen to this moment from Senator maisy, aroma. You lied to congress. Utah Representative Charlie Chris that you didn't know what objections Muller's. Team. I have to your March twenty four th so-called summary. You told Senator Chris van, Holland that you didn't know if Bob Muller supported your conclusions. But you knew. You lied. And now, we know America deserves better. You should resign. Coming up. Donald Trump celebrates the damning findings in the Muller. Pro by calling the boss stay with us. Issues that came up in the mall report with Mr Putin tonight. But we discussed the actually sort of smiled when he said something to the effect that it started off as a mountain, and it ended up being a mouse. But he knew that because he knew there was no collusion whatsoever. So pretty much. That's what it was started. Gives me I'm talking I'm answering this question. Very rude. So we had a good conversation about many different things. We didn't discuss that really discuss. Donald Trump commemorated press freedom day on Friday by attempting to bully members of the press, including my NBC news colleague, Kristen Welker. Nevertheless, she persisted and elicited a very telling admission from the president that at no time during his hour and a half long conversation with Latimer Putin. Did he warn the Russian president not to meddle in our upcoming election? Instead Trump focused on Putin smiling at him, though, the White House clarified that it was not a video call. So the smile soom was implied or the small was real. Why wouldn't it be Putin? Got exactly what he wanted when he attacked our last presidential election to help get Trump elected. And he now appears to be getting the green light from the apprentice star to get the band all back together. Again, join me now, Malcolm Nance MSNBC contributor and author of the plot. To destroy democracy. Sarah, Kenzi or journalist and author of the view from flyover country, many Hassan columnist at the intercept for Nandi democratic pollster and host of the podcast strange days and Vija, Molly, a former FBI double agent and author of how to catch a Russian spy. Thank you for being here, Malcolm and come to you first that performance by Donald Trump in the Oval Office refer essentially saying, no, I didn't ask about Russian meddling. What did you take from that? I thought reminded me of a classic film called Star Wars door Vader kneels at the foot of the emperor, and you knew Darth Vader's evil. But so the emperor is a higher evil power. And what we saw was a classic example of utter obsequiousness Leiva devotion boot looking by Donald Trump. It was a disgraceful display that he would go on there. And literally talk to the person who. A tact the United States in the fundamentals of our democracy and praise him and work with him to call this a hoax worse than that. He dropped the hint that very soon Russian sanctions will be lifted and he called he's the one who initiated that call or you call this money you had to phone in get that quarterly evil done. Yeah. Sara kids your we've been talking about. Can I joke that we have our three anniversary of talking on television coming up in July. I think yours and mine is probably about the same on the same subject, and we have been talking for a long time. Donald Trump's tendency to behave as an autocrat. But there are a lot example, forcing his his his subordinates to not talk about Russian attacks on our election cures to Nielsen who is the who was the department of homeland security secretary who was warned not to talk about it. Don't talk about Russian attacks. Don't tell him even though she was charged with protecting the twenty twenty election. But there's this other aspect of Trump, which Malcolm just alluded to which he's an incredibly weak person who was essentially the subordinate of an autocratic, he's not the Arctic rat, but he is the autocrats apprentice, what do you make of those two that dichotomy? I'm not sure that Trump sees himself is weak. I think he likes to delude himself that he's in control as. We know he's had these financial arrangements political arrangements with Russia and with the Russian mafia going back several decades. And which he owes them a great deal of money, which they have a great deal of control over what they want to reveal about him. So yes, he is subservient. We've seen this before we saw him prostrate himself to Putin and Helsinki. We saw him ask Putin would be as best friend on Twitter and twenty thirteen we saw him beg Russia fairly Clinton's emails. And so none of this is new, However, I think Trump doesn't care necessarily if people know what their relationship is. He wants to flaunt it he wants people to feel powerless. He wants the United States and the people of the United States to know that they're effectively being treated like citizens of a proxy state to Russia in reality. I think what we've had is. I've said on this show many times four is a transnational crime syndicate masquerading as government with various actors, including Trump and Putin leading the charge. And you know, many a time there is a learn helplessness aspect to all of this. Right. There are the are the. Republicans who display a learned helplessness obsequiousness to Trump. And then he displays really flaunts. I think Sarah use the right word and obsequiousness to Russia that he's flaunting the fact that oh, no I'm going to Putin for advice on North Korea. He's telling me, what is happening in Venezuela, and whatever my intelligence services, tell me that's not true. It's what he tells me that's important. It is it's an odd thing that he is both an autocrat and sort of junior partner in an autocratic. So the string of genes definitely. And I use the phrase myself a couple of years ago. He's a wanna be ten dictator won't stop when he says the Chinese president doesn't have term limits. Wouldn't it be great? If we had to hit just kidding a load his head. He's not really kidding is revealing of his mindset, I think Sarah's right to use the word flaunting. Imagine any other president in the situation. He's quote, unquote cleared totally exonerated by. This report. His press team would say to Mr President move on. Now start talking about other things. Don't bring your done. You're in the clear instead he goes out of his way to say, Iran. Putin and I told him all the Russian hoax and these smiled. It was great to draw more attention to it. And the flaunting of it is a reminder is going to happen now over the next eighteen months because my problem with Democrats say, well, we can't impeach him. We need to beat him at the ballot box for the next eighteen months. What do you think is going to happen for the next eighteen months? What's going to happen at that next election because we've talked a lot about punishing Trump bull Republicans will happen in two thousand sixteen but it's about looking what to twenty twenty. If you're telling the Russian president all is good. It's all been fine. That was no collusion. It was all a hoax we've dealt with it. We're in the clear he's saying this morning. I think about forty five minutes ago on Twitter. We have a great good relationship with Russia. Why isn't that a note to Russia and to Chinese and two other adversaries to really interfere in the next election? If the president said saying, it's all fine. We're cleared. Good to go. Yeah. And for not a Monday, not only the president essentially saying nothing to see here. It's all fine. His attorney general saying that there would there would be nothing wrong with it. He couldn't say. Even when Ben Sasse asked him a Republican asked him was trying to give him a softball to give him the opportunity to say, they would be something wrong with that. We don't want that to happen if they're not protecting. If the department of homeland security can't even talk about Russian interference. If the attorney general says, I can't really answer whether or not additional interference would be wrong. And the president says no I'm going to ostentatiously be the subordinate of the Russian president. There's nothing you can do about it. I wonder if the response on the other side is disproportionately uninformed. Joe I've been so disturbed and frankly chilled by what we've seen this week including yesterday's disgraceful. Call with Putin that I'd like to address my comments to the democratic members of congress in the house and Senate that I know watch AM joy religiously and that I know are watching right now. And I think we do our fellow-citizens joy a disservice, by mincing words. So I won't do that the United States constitution the rule of law in this country at this moment, and at this hour is under direct attack by wanna be regime that is mass grading itself. Under the name of the Trump administration for nearly two and a half years now joy, we have seen this administration act only in bad faith, and under no circumstances in the national interest, and with Democrats in essence, not really confronting and underplaying. This direct assault on the rule of law on the constitution that we see transpiring before our very eyes every day. Democratic congressional leaders run the risk of advocating their constitutional responsibilities to defend this country to defend the constitution against all enemies. Foreign and domestic we have to eliminate this threatening talk and start using the power that we have because as many says, we may not get the opportunity in eighteen months. Yeah. Nevi Demolli from the perspective of the Kremlin twenty sixteen attack. Completely successful. Donald Trump says in Helsinki, we want to have a normal relationship with Russia. In fact, we want to be friends. He now is taking their advice on North Korea. They shot up missile Trump this morning tweeting out that's going to be fine. That's fine. He's taking their word for what's happening in Venezuela. Total success on their part. Why wouldn't they? But for some really extrordinary reaction from the Democrats. I don't even know what they would have the power to do at this point to stop it. Why not go further? Why wouldn't rush just go all the way going do it again in twenty twenty? Well, the only reason that they wouldn't do it again is because every time Donald Trump does something I'm more and more surprised that this man has no idea what the hell he's doing. And they don't have to actually do anything to create cast in this country. Donald Trump will do that on his own the reality here is that when it comes to the mullahs report, the one thing that is in contested is that Russia as we've discussed over and over again actually did try to interfere two thousand sixteen election. Even if there wasn't collusion even if there wasn't conspiracy. It's very clear that Russia interfered and interfere in a way that was beneficial to Donald Trump, and the thing that always gets me at the end of the day joy. And we saw with the phone call with Putin is that at the Russians didn't even give Donald Trump anything. I mean, when they they promised emails there was talk about a hotel or something in Moscow. They got Donna. Trump for the princely sum of zero dollars. And that is the thing that we see repeating is that you know, what I learned working counterintelligence against the Russians has this is all about negotiations all about leverage and Donald Trump is simply outclassed by Vladimir Putin. I mean, the fact that he calls up that he initiated call as you point out to Putin after this is a huge concession that small piece alone not to have Pompeii, oh, not to have someone of a lower level reached out to the Russians to have sort of bilateral discussions, but for him to pick the phone, and do it is essentially a clear green light the Russians to say. You know, I will do whatever you want me to do. I'm going to roll over. And my goodness. The Russians are reading that. And assessing it, and I can only imagine what comes next, and again, it just it just more of the things that are going to keep me up. Unfortunately up awake at night. Yeah. Indeed. It will let let's let's go to the because I think for non really important point that there there is no Republican impetus to do anything about this. So the Democrats only control one half of the first branch of government. They. Control the house of representatives. They're concerned Sarah is political that if they try to go too hard to try to do something about this that they will pay a political price for it. You wrote a book called the view from flyover country. Is there any concern where Democrats are worried about the places where you're talking about places like, Missouri? Is there any concern out there in the world that this is happening to our country or our people not paying attention to it? Of course, people are concerned people can see that we're living in chaos, you can see that their rights are being taken away. People can see that our country is in jeopardy that our sovereignty is in jeopardy. I don't know why there's this cliche about my part of the country, which I tried to bump in my book. But it's something that I think the democratic leadership is falsely relying on to forbid the the process that is necessary for this country, which is the process of impeachment. We need to have impeachment hearings the evidence of Trump and his miss in administrations crimes and his campaigns crimes. Need to be presented to the country because people in this country are. That it doesn't matter. If voted for Clinton, it doesn't matter if you voted for Trump. It doesn't matter if you like him or not we are old that information as citizens the United States, we are a democratic process, and this is their constitutional duty. It is not optional for the members of congress to just just shirk this it is their actual job. And we as citizens need to insist that they do this job. Yeah. We're gonna we're gonna come back next hour and have more on this. But I want to before losing to this hour, you brief members of congress, you brief these Democrats what is their reticence, and what is their power that they could use. You know, I think the biggest powers is really what Sarah is saying is that there seems to be a, unfortunately, a political politicizing something that is a national security threat. And I think if the American public understood exactly what that threat is. And we were clear and concise about this and we separated the question of collusion of conspiracy, Donald Trump and instead focused on the that Russia is. A bad actor and will seek to remain a bad actor, and we presented the American public, and they had a perfect dovetail with Donald Trump. That is something that they can certainly do. Yeah. And that is why we have been having you guys back for all these many years because that is the whole point is to try to get people to focus to understand that we're not a country if another country medals in our democratic process, this is so important it's fundamental to your right to vote if they're in your voter rolls that is voter suppression. But we need to start thinking about this stuff. Thank you guys. I really always appreciate talking with you Sarah mount medi and for non we'll be back in our next hour. Thank you so much V Jamali. Always appreciate you, my friend and coming up Senator, comma Harris pins down William bar, stay with us. I think we are in a situation of national security crisis. That is only going to get bigger. I think the Russians are running a strategic political warfare operation against the United States. And that we are at cyber war with them. They are running an operation to select or influence their preferred candidate to get into the White House. And I think Katie tur- hit it right on the head. Do you have any pause about what you're doing? And you had no pause whatsoever. We've got much more AM joy coming up tonight. I'll be back for a special edition of AM joy at seven pm called PM joy, followed by the premiere of Donny Deutsch is new show Saturday night, politics and Donnie will join me in our next hour with a preview more after the break. Has the president or anyone at the White House ever asked or suggested that you open an investigation of anyone? Yes, or no, please, sir. The president or anybody else? Seems you'd remember something like that and be able to tell us, but I'm trying to grapple with the word suggest. I mean, there have been discussions of matters out there that. They have not asked me to open investigation. They've suggested I don't know. I wouldn't say suggests I don't know. I know inferred. Wow. Well, good morning and welcome back to AM joy, one of the signal moments to come out of a Torney general William bar, Senate Judiciary committee testimony this week was that exchange with Senator and presidential candidate, comma, Harris, Donald Trump has repeatedly called for investigations into his political enemies in particular, Hillary Clinton who has promised his rally crowds, he would lock up but also those who dared to investigate his campaign's ties to Russia. Remarkably bar struggled to say whether or not the boss ordered him to actually open any such investigations. He just kind of glitched rather than answering. Meanwhile, Republicans in congress led by Senator Lindsey Graham are continuing to play the role of pre plea deal. Michael Cohen's dutifully serving Donald Trump by vowing to indeed launch investigations into the people, and let's be clear by people. I mean, FBI agents and other Nash. Security professionals who investigated the Trump campaign as part of their duty to protect the United States to protect you against a foreign attack on our election now with that in mind now, you can listen to them. This committee is going to look long and hard. And how this all started. We're gonna look at the Fiso warrant process starting with struck and page at everybody else leading up before the investigation they're being investigated. What are you doing to investigate on authorize media context by the department and facials during the Russian investigation, we have multiple criminal leak investigations underway. Joining me now MSNBC contributor mouth of Nance, the tasha Trond of politico, MSNBC Justice and security analyst, Matthew Miller and media Sonn of the intercept. Thank you all for being here during the break you and I were talking about a max boot column, which I am definitely going to have to read now. And you were saying there is an analogy to what's happening now that he made that you wanted to tease moot wrote an up at in the Washington Post yesterday where he said that the nation is now essentially at the heels of a criminal administration and the way that. He said it was imagine a city where the mayor is completely corrupt. And then the DA is completely corrupt because he's earning money and power from the president from that mayor, and then the chief of police is completely corrupt and that the city council is completely corrupt. That is where the United States is at that point. You would have the state and the federal authorities to help you this administration is completely and wholly a corrupt criminal enterprise. Now, you have the attorney general of the United States is acting as a hitman for the president of the United States not looking out for the interest of the people of the United States and laws now. No, Matt now, no longer matter. I've dedicated every second of my life to defend this nation. I love and believe in the constitution in the United States. My country is now under attack by the president of the United States who will stand for it who in this in our own congress right now are wanting to negotiate with him right there less bit of. Power is now going to come under eighteen months of crushing pressure from a man that has all but in name a dictator, and I would like to hear how we're going to handle this problem, and, you know, Matthew Miller to fine point on it dot com has been very specific that he wants the investigators investigated. He just sent out a text message Thursday his campaign sent that. Text message message to their followers saying team Trump time to investigate the investigators now that may be written office, silly Trump speak, but Donald Trump has been very explicit that he wants the people who opened a counterintelligence investigation into his campaign because they had multiple multiple ties with Russia. He wants them investigated. Are we going to see back Miller in your view, this attorney general start prosecuting the people who tried to protect this country from Russian attack? I suspect we're going to see some moves in that direction. The question is how far is willing to go. And how quickly I think this is been the president's goal since he took off. Obviously there were the locker up comments during the campaign that you reference and early on in office. We know that he was pressuring his attorney general Jeff Sessions two to open a new investigation in watch a new prosecution of Hillary Clinton, and he's been saying the same thing about Jim Komi and Pete struck and all the other people at the FBI. And I think the scariest thing for me going forward is that this is going to be his political reelection strategy to you've already seen it with with reports of the president Rudy Giuliani have been suggesting that the Justice department investigate Joe Biden for some conspiracy theory nonsense, they've cooked up and Bill bars comments at this hearing this week we're troubling because they suggest he is having conversations with the president about investigations or or someone in the White House investigation that they should open. And then there's a moment. Most people have forgotten. I think from his confirmation hearing where he was asked if it was appropriate for the president to suggest who the attorney general investigating instead of saying what what the department would usually say, which is the department and the White House should have no conversations about criminal investigations. He said something along the lines of well, anybody can suggest an investigation. It's up. For me to decide what to do. He was willing unwilling to draw that red line in his confirmation hearing. And I think we saw more evidence this week that he still doesn't see that is a red line. And it's really really troubling for what what may be to come in the next few months, and to that very point many let let's play Blumenthal his exchange with embar when he asked whether he would recuse himself because there are there things that we embark at potentially do that people should be alarmed about one. He could just start investigating potentially prosecuting people who did their duty trying to stop a Russian attack on our election, or he could intervene in the fourteen remaining open Muller related investigations that are out there. Richard Richard Blumenthal, asking whether he will step aside from those. Have you had any conversations with anyone in the White House about those ongoing investigations that were spawned or spun off by I don't recall having any substantive discussion on the investigate have you had any non substantive discussion. It's possible that the name of a case was mentioned. And have you provided information about any of those ongoing investee any investment any information whatsoever? I don't recall you don't recall, I don't recall, providing any will you recuse yourself from those investigations, no, many Hassan your thoughts. I don't recall -joyed stay aligned from the Mazda cover up artists. This guy has been a cover up artist. For many is night. He helped George Bush senior cover up the Iran contra towards the end of Bush's presidency. He tried to get federal investigators literal call to investigate the Clinton head of the nine thousand nine hundred. Election. We know who he is. And when he turns up to be confirmed by the Senate as attorney general for Trump his toss goal is to cover up the Muller report and obstruction of Justice. It's an outrage. Three Democrats Doug Jones, Joe Manchin, custom cinema vote from I think they should hang in. Shame that voted for. This guy's attorney general. We saw him basically perjure himself earlier this week in previous appearances in front of congress. He needs to be impeached needs to be removed from office, but this policy the Democrats gonna do I said this in the last hour twelve state again Democrats keep saying we'll deal with this into a twenty twenty elections eighteen months ago. Some of them say this is a bad precedent for future presidents future presidents, Donald Trump is in office right now was right to say, it is very scary. Eighteen months in which he's going to use Bill ball on the power of the federal government to investigate his opponents. We know he won't tannery Clinton. We know now that they're going to be targeting. Joe Biden if Joe Biden bunny bunnies on this common iris. This is what tin dictate. Do this is what people like Bill always done one of the Democrats gonna do about joy. And that that is a very salient question. Let's go to touch reporting on that. The Democrats Mendis point have shown incredible reluctance to act now there is some thinking that they're trying to build up a record that can withstand supreme court scrutiny that they went as far as they could to cooperate with the executive branch before issuing subpoenas. There's some thought that that is what they are doing on the other hand if Russia easily could meddle in the next election. Again, if they're being sort of invited to do it if the attorney general has said, I'm open to investigate in the investigators. What is it? The Democrats are planning to do about it. It's a great question. Joy. I think what you said is right about the school of thought right now among Democrats being that they're pushing and pushing and pushing right up to the limit. So that they have this record that they can show a court and say, look we try to hold as we possibly could pull out all the stops. And the Torney general would not cooperate the attorney general just would not give us the redacted version of the report would not go to court with us to get the graduate material that we want so that they have a better chance of succeeding in that instance, but they're planning if they don't really get their way next week. They're planning to potentially hold him in contempt which of course, House Republicans did with the Torney general, then attorney general Eric Holder over the fast and furious investigation, and that leaves a Mark on the attorney general's record. But it doesn't really result in any substantive accountability. Just a lot of arguments that that doesn't go far enough. But I think we've known who build our is for a while now ever since twenty seventeen when he told the New York Times that he thought that the Clinton investigating the Clinton uranium one scandal and the Clinton foundation was more worthy of investigators time than the Russia investigation since eighties kind of not changed, right? And the spy gate thing where he said that it was a big deal for spine to occur on the campaign. And it's it's also interesting that last week he actually said that the FBI's efforts in twenty sixteen to monitor members of the Trump campaign and their ties to Russia seem fairly anaemic that was the word that he used if that is indeed the extent of it using a warrant and having informants, contact members of the campaign, and those are exactly the things that Republicans are pointing to now as an overreach really having trouble kind of squaring, those two characterizations. But with regard to what Democrats do they're certainly. Impeachment talk being ginned up. Not just with regard to Trump at also now with our. Yeah. Absolutely. A very real quick around the horn again. Building a record for the high court. Has it worked has it worked on? How does that work on deter Taytay has that been affective against aired Awan? You're you're globally conscious guy. Tell me which worked hasn't would Trump boroughs the same methods of de legitimizing old forms of internal opposition accountability that other dictators of done. He sees what they've done very student of that nothing else. He talks about so cool judges. And this is just about Trump is about the entire Republican party full into Joe Biden that it's all about Trump and the Republicans of fine nonsense, and we know imagine if Barack Obama was president right now, imagine what the Republicans would do Brock. Obama was tweeting. I'm with him in relation to the Iranians. Democrats bring a knife to a gunfight the Republicans bring a rocket launcher. And by the way, I'm with him. What made is referring to is doubled trip? Literally tweeted about Kim Jong UN the vicious murderous dictator of North Korea who just launched missiles in complete defiance of Trump's claim that he's brought him to heal on the idea of nuclear proliferation. He tweeted, I'm with him. He actually tweeted that he wrote that down very quickly. Matthew Miller Republican the top them for? Moment because they've showed no sense of shame here. Even the ones who claim they care about Russian interference. They're not going to do anything about it. Is there anything about the reputational damage William bars unto himself that moves anyone on the Republican side to think that there's any cost John? You've got a great deal and great gig in the torture memo worked out for him. No, not yet. I think Bill doesn't care about the reputational damage because I don't think he sees it as reputa- as reputational damage. I think he and the entire Republican party sort of live in this right wing cocoon now where there were warded for bad behavior by positive coverage on Fox News and positive coverage on Breitbart and just don't really respond to the same kind of incentives that kept politicians in check from from behaving this way in the past. And so look, I think Democrats don't have a strong hand to play. They can impeach Bill bar, but it's somewhat of feckless option. He's not going to be removed by the Senate. So they're doing basically, the only thing they can which is to go to court and build the strongest record. They have to try to pull documents out of out of out of the Justice department by going to court, and then hopefully at some point the political prices so high that Republicans are moved to act, but it's been over two years now, and we haven't seen that happen yet. So it's it is a high road. I think they're pushing his high bar they're pushing his as much as they can. But hoping for the Republicans to do anything, I think is is setting yourself up for disappointment Sarah real quickly. Monday's big. Deadline day. Are we going to see the tax returns happen is William bargain to comply is Don Mcgann going to give into the subpoenas? Any of that going to happen on Monday? Sarah. I'm sorry. I'm sorry. Natasha. I'm sorry. You're not answer because you're not you're you're. A little confused. No. I think we one of the major points that Bill barmaid which was pretty shocking actually doing the hearing was that the president would be on completely solid legal ground if he prevented on again from testifying. So I think that's the kind of advice that the president is getting now, and whether or not something happens that will prompt again to actually defy that and appear before the committee remains to be seen. But with regard to the contempt threat, that's being hung over the attorney general's head Democrats have been kicking the can down the road for a while now. So if Bill bar does not comply with their demands, I'm not totally confident that they're going to follow through on that. But ultimately, what is the political price? Democrats if they don't start getting serious about those colleagues today, Malcolm likened it to clean your room. No, clean your room. No, okay. I'll I mean, that's the strategy. Right. So okay. So then we have a member of congress on the next block talk for a moment. What should they be doing? What can they do? And how serious crisis. Really is. So we over blowing how seriousness I hope that. I don't see them in the green room. You know, I'm just astounded. You know, I come on here. And I try to be nice and calm when I come in. And then I listened to all of this analysis, and it just brings out the inner patriot in me, and it shouldn't everyone in this country. We have got to stand for our constitution. We've got to stand for our laws and to say, well, you know, we're going to negotiate it. We're gonna create a nice paper trail that is not fighting for this country. That is not fighting for what we believe that is not fighting to defend this nation. So we I think that if all these people who write me every day, they need to just blow up the telephone lines to Monday, they need to blow up the Twitter, and they need the whole Democrats accountable. Not the Republicans hold the Democrats accountable and say this nation in our laws. You will now stand defend because if you don't defend the we may not have them. In eighteen months this White House. Now feels it can do anything. Robert Muller has now given him permission to believe that he is untouchable. And he was not the Elliot Ness that we all wanted. And if this congressman comes in here and says, okay, we're going to have this discussion. Then that's what you're going to have. You're gonna have a harshly worded letter in a machine gun. Fight strongly. Worded letter doesn't do to presumably Natasha Tron, Malcolm Nance, Matthew Miller medicine. Thank you all very much and coming up next to my one on one with congressman Jamie Raskin, we discuss the bar bar version of the Miller report, the actual mullahs report and impeachment that going to happen. We are going to use. What what process we have in the courts and elsewhere to get the answers in the nation. We need the attorney general we gotta let it late last night. Refusing us refusing to adhere to the subpoena. This is indefensible we will make one more good faith attempt to negotiate and to get to get the access to the report that we need. And then if we don't get that we will proceed to the attorney general in contempt and we'll go from there on Friday House Judiciary chairman Jerry Nadler, made a final counteroffer to attorney general William bar to turn over the unredacted Muller report and underlying evidence to congress giving bar until Monday at nine AM to respond or the committee will move to contempt proceedings. Meanwhile, House Democratic lawmakers continue to face growing questions about just what this administration has to do to merit impeachment. Here speaker Pelosi addressing that question. Do you think that the path of investigation and getting more information, and you never know that one thing can the other is never table, but shoot start there. I don't agree with that. Joining me now is Representative Jamie Raskin of Maryland, member of the House Judiciary committee and congressman thank you so much for being here. And with you, thank you. And I'm just worn the audience a tiny bit of a delay on our on between us. So let's go to what the judiciary committee has now made as its counter offer. This was the Friday offer from the committee chairman, the department will reconsider its refusal to allow all members of congress to view redacted. Portions of the report the department will work jointly with congress to seek a court order to provide grand jury material and. Navato that will prioritize underlying investigative evidentiary materials for media production. I think a lot of Democrats are wondering why so accommodating, why is the committee continually making counteroffers allowing William bar and the administration to blow through deadlines and then giving them new deadlines. The courts have emphasized in the past the two branches are supposed to work together to get to an accommodation on stuff like this in every other administration, Republican democrat has generally been able to do it. But understand the Trump administration is now engaged in categorical bad faith, defiance of congress and the lawmaking branch of government. So they're doing it to us over the unredacted Mullah report, they're doing it to the ways and means committee over the president's taxes, which they refuse to turn over despite a statute which mandates that they turn it over there. Trying to interfere with the financial services committee's investigation of Deutsche Bank and Capital One on the oversight committee. They're withholding all evidence and testimony from people about their corruption of the White House security clearance process in the personnel office. Basically, the president is said we're not going to cooperate with congress and under. Stand that that was the basis for article three of the impeachment articles that were brought against Richard Nixon that the president refused to cooperate with congress. We have to get the constitutional order. Correct. We're the article one branch America is a Representative democracy. We represent the people the sole primary job of the president eight states is to take care that the laws are faithfully executed. Not frustrated. Not circumvented not worded and definitely not violated. This president is now setting themselves at war against the constitution and against the legislative branch. So yes, maybe it seems a little old fashioned that chairman Adler wants to go through the steps that house committees have always gone through. But we want to show the courts what we're doing because we're going to go to move to hold this guy in contempt and the executive branch needs to understand that they are unifying the democratic caucus behind the defense of the separation of powers and our preeminent role in the constitutional system. And you know, what I? Understand. You know, the argument that you just made that you laid it out very well that that there is a precedent that if you're going to go to court, especially we're gonna get all the supreme court there needs to be a record in place that congress it all it could that the house did all it could to try to achieve cooperation by sort of noncoercive means I understand that. But I wanna play you Elizabeth Warren said which kind of confers with what you just said what you just said about what happens if congress keeps allowing this kind of what can only be called lawlessness from the executive branch. Take a listen. Donald Trump and do old. Hey tried to do to impede. An investigation into his own wrongdoing and the attack by a foreign government. Then it gives license to the next president and the next president and the next president to do exactly the same. There is a way that congress could even get the underlying grand jury material which is impeach Donald Trump under impeachments different set of rules. It's my understanding if Donald Trump the highest sanctioned the congress allowed to confer on president is impeachment. That's the worst. You can do it's the most you can do if this president is not impeached. Then does congress not set the precedent for the next president to even further with the lawlessness to go even further to ignore congress and do not essentially create a king? I think you're right. That men Senator Warren is absolutely correct. We've got a responsibility to future generations to establish that the president one cannot convert the government of the United States into a money making operation for himself and his family and his business and his friends and then to cannot interfere in ongoing criminal investigations that include investigations into him. I mean, I think any of us would have been appalled to find out that president was interfering in any criminal investigation or prosecution at all remember those days when the president was completely apart from the law enforcement function. Now, we've got a president who's interfering in law enforcement investigation into him and his family and his business and so on, but we also have a responsibility not just to the future. But to the past two because it was James Madison. Who said this was the cardinal principle of our Justice system that no man should be a judge in his own case. And yet that's precisely what Donald Trump has managed to affects wait through his. Erupt attorney general who's basically acting as a criminal defense lawyer for the president. But you just made an argument to impeach Donald Trump. But that's going to happen. Well, remember impeachment has two parts to it. Okay. One part is legal which were there high crimes and misdemeanors, akin to bribery, and treason, and I take those to be serious grave offenses against the character of our government. And I've got no question that there's overwhelming evidence that took place the other part of it is the political question. This is not been vested in the article three courts to decide its vested in congress. So we do have a responsibility those of us who taken a constitutional oath to take impeachment into account with everything else we're doing there were trying to make progress to get healthcare to people to defend pre existing condition. Coverage to lower prescription drug prices to pass equal pay for equal work. The Democrats at least are fighting for a real progressive policy agenda for America, which has been bottled up in the Senate. So we've got to balance those things as we move forward and defend the constitution the rule of law. But I remember reading once that the story. And say that democracies in military conflict or very slow to rise because they're busy with real life. But once they have risen, they are single-mindedly and overwhelmingly determined to vindicate Justice to make sure the right thing happens. I think you can say a lot about the congress like that in the democratic majority. We've been trying to do other stuff, but you get us mad and get us focused on these breaches of the constitution. And we're coming after you. Let me very quickly has a lot of time left. I wanna Maryland question really quickly. We know that Donald Trump did not ask let him or Putin on his phone call about election interference. We also know that per the mullahs report they were breaches in more than twenty. States states in terms of getting involved in their voting rolls in Russian the essentially being able to access the voting rolls of multiple states. We know in your state in Maryland a company with a Russian investor now. Essentially took ownership of a company that is responsible for hosting Maryland's elections data. How was that allowed to happen? I think that the company is no longer allowed to own that does no longer own that company that hosts elections data. But how was that allowed to happen? How can four nationals owned companies that host our elections data? Well, first of all, it's absolutely scandalous that the president could be speaking to Putin yesterday and then to refer to the Russian hoax. The clear that there was not sufficient evidence to charge his campaign with criminal conspiracy. But on page two of the report special counsel Muller said that there was sweeping and systematic evidence of the Russian campaign against our election interference with the DNC with the d triple c which Hillary Clinton's campaign, and to me, it's absolutely scandalous in scurrilous that Donald Trump would refer to it as a hoax, but in terms of what's happening in Maryland. You're right. What took place was a Russian oligarch, essentially took control of the company that owned the main election vendor in our state, and when we learned of it, nobody knew about it during the campaign, I introduced legislation which were reintroducing now to say that our election vendors cannot be owned by foreign corporations, and it is part of HR one to try to clean up elections, generally. Yeah. Well, keep us posted on that. Because I think most Americans would be much more confident. If that was the case, thank you very much congressman. Jamie raskin. Appreciate your time and more coming up. Thank you. We are on the delay. Sorry. Well, former White House chief of staff John Kelly is now profiting off the migrant prices that he'll create CBS news reports that Kelly has joined the board of directors of caliber international four profit company that operates detention centers for unaccompanied migrant children, including the largest in homestead Florida. Meanwhile, at least fifty five children who were separated from their parents last year are still in custody and still separated from their parents. They in fact may never be reunited good jobs to Kelly up next aimed joy. We will not hear from the attorney general today, but this committee intends to obtain the information that needs to conduct this constitutional oversight and legislative responsibilities. We will make sure that no present becomes a monarch house today. Share retirement Jerry, Nadler called out attorney general William bar for failing to appear before the committee on Thursday. And he's now threatening to hold bar in contempt unless he turns over the unredacted Muller report to congress by Monday morning for non and Sarah are back with me. And hopefully has got a chance to hear congressman Raskin and Donald start with you. He explained what is political has also written this up that essentially the reason that the chairman is taking all these steps which looked like a quivering, and I think to the general public are that they're trying to build a record very quickly from politico. If the dispute news to the court as seems likely one of the issues that will arise is whether each brand has tried to accommodate the. Other branches constitutional needs in previous legal battles courts have said that the constitution requires both sides to negotiate and good faith to find a solution. If nothing else Nadler is establishing a record the house lawyers can point to in any such litigation as they urge judge to find the administration's position is unreasonable is I'm sorry. That was the New York Times is that a reasonable argument in your view. No, it's not I said on this program couple years ago that Donald Trump and his administration that cancer on the United States. I believe it. Then I believe it. Now, you don't build a record when you're trying to deal with cancer, you attack it immediately, and you remove it before metastases, and spreads and infects the body politic as we've seen this too. It's we've seen this Chamberlain esque approach of appeasing the autocrat now for nearly two and a half years joy. And we're has it gotten us absolutely nowhere. So many of my friends who are in Democratic Congress who are members of congress Fernande we beat him on a healthcare message in two thousand eighteen that's how we got the house. What has been the response to the healthcare message William bar, the nation's chief enforcement officers took this week. It proudly said they were going to decimate it including the elimination of pre existing conditions. So to keep the World War Two metaphor enough with the Chamberlain. Esque appeasement of this direct threat to the constitution the rule of law. Where is our Churchill who will fight them on the beaches? Where is our FDR who says we have nothing to fear, but fear itself are JFK who said we will bear any price joy and bear any burden to defend the success and survival liberty in the United States. I think this out we talk of threatening will get us nowhere, but closer to what this regime this wannabe regime wants which is total control of this government. Sarah getting a nod of approval from Sarah. Congress was saying to take for point. He's he's saying that the Democrats are trying to do these two things at one time to fight to try to prevent Donald Trump from becoming a monarch, but also to do business sensually to get healthcare bills in a transportation, Bill an infrastructure Bill all things Donald Trump would have to sign is it off key for Democrats to be trying to say that they're holding the administration accountable, but also be saying, but we're also going to do all these other things to get him to sign them. Yeah. I don't know why they're putting any kind of good faith into this administration. I don't know why they're not taking seriously. The fact that this is indeed criminal enterprise that our sovereignty is threatened that Trump's own people don't seem to have total control of the government. They're influenced by outside parties there obviously things that congress needs to be doing what we've seen on the GOP end is total obstructionism that's aimed at making American citizens. Weaker making them less likely to fight back. I think the health care Bill is an example of that. They do not want an engaged citizenry. They're going after voter rights going after civil rights. They want a one party state that is what the GOP cease and Trump wants to be an autocrat with that state behind him. And they've been working in tandem. They've been doing it successfully this idea that they're incompetent is a myth. They're extremely competent. They're just not interested in the actual process of governing. They're interested in ruling for non-eu. Pollster the Democrats response to that isn't based in large part on the fact that even though it's likely they agree with everything to just sit. Right. They're afraid that if they take bolder action it will cause them to lose in twenty twenty it'll cause them to lose house seats when you look at the data. Is there any truth to that? Or does it matter? If these stakes are as high as both of your presenting when you take the oath to the constitution. It doesn't say defend the constitution, the United States, depending on what the poll sage OI, you defend the constitution against all foreign and domestic enemies that are out to salt, the integrity of the constitution, which this administration does several times on a daily basis, and you know, my son a little frustrated I kind of am on the kid from the eighties. Remember, the Terminator film where Kyle Reese is in the interrogation room with Dr civil Rin. And he says, you don't get it. This guy will not stop. You can't reason with him. There is. No negotiation. You cannot collaborate. If you collaborate your collaborator, and we cannot there's no time for collaboration. It is time to use the constitutional powers that the American people gave in a mandate to democratic leaders in November of twenty eight teen to do anything. But that joy, and let me be very clear again to do anything. But that is to advocate, the constitutional responsibilities to defend the United States. And you know, I kind of think that perhaps do you think I mean both of you, Sarah? This is your field of study for non you are very conversant. Unfortunately, with the way that oughta critic states work and the way that they evolve very quickly. Right. You both know that and for most Americans, I think it's hard to imagine that this country could become an autocracy, right? I think it's hard to get people to focus on that. That's a real thing that could happen to us with the nation that one World War Two right defended Europe as each of you just to comment on that very quickly. Think part of the disconnect is there is a certain this can't happen here mentality. Maybe even among our elected Democrats. Are you first and then for non yeah? Absolutely. And that kind of blindness is ultimately fatal talker. He doesn't happen overnight. It's happened. Exactly. How it has happened over the last three years or you lose control of the executive body the legislature the judiciary? And then you end up with a population that is helpless to this effect. I think people are expecting kind of movie vision version of talk, see, that's obvious. But that's not how it actually plays out in reality. Yeah. For non I'll let you get the last word on that same thing because it does happen really slowly. And then really quickly joy. You're exactly right. And I don't really blame as much the American people as those responsible for alerting the American people in sounding the alarm right now. The only good faith. We have in our government are the Democrats in congress. They have access to the intelligence. They have access to the information, and they need to be doing a much better job of telling the American people. We're facing talkers. For non Amande. Syracuse your friends, I really appreciate you guys. Thank you so much for being here. Really? Appreciate you guys. Thank you for sounding the alarm and coming up the star of MSNBC's newest show joins me next. Donny Deutsch has always had a lot to say about the shenanigans of the Trump White House and starting tonight, you'll get to hear even more from Donnie when he premieres his own brand new show, Saturday night politics at eight PM eastern, MSNBC Donny Deutsch joins me. Now, we were just talking that. I assumed that I had met. I see when TV all the time. We've actually this is the first time we've ever been on TV. I removes very funny show a couple of weeks ago by the I love you work up on here. You're amazing. So I'm walking through thirty rock downstairs, and all of a sudden this young woman with a baseball hat on. Switch goes, you gotta come see me. Okay. It took me a second. And it's joy where you are. Not this joy baseball, so thrilled to be well, thank you very much. Yes. Now, I have my beat on. So let's talk about the Democrats for we've been talking a lot about them today. Because it does seem and you're a messaging guy, you're really good at it. And it's it's what your career was based on. They don't seem to know. How to explain why? What hat? What's in the the report is important, and what they're gonna do about it? The that is the big challenge for the next twenty months for the Democrats. How do you walk and chew gum? Same. Here's the way. You do it like it or not voters? Choose. We had a very kind of exciting. We're very frightening. Week voters are not gonna vote based on obstruction based on recommendations. But do you walk away from it? No, you turn it into a consumer issue. Which is there are two sets of laws out. There the overriding democratic messages, it's a rig system. It's a rig system for the wealthy. They screwed you taxes. It's a rig system for the wealthy and powerful. They wanna scream our healthcare. It's a rig system e when it comes to law look at the president look at his in-house counsel. Then I've been playing on this. That's a message that resonates with voters. So take it out from what it is. And turn it into something. That means something to me, that's the way people vote and Donald Trump for a long time. Unfortunately, what is what what is it is he trying to be an autocrat in your view. That's what Michael Cohen said. He wants to be an autograph. He wants to be on my show tonight. One of my topics. I have his call. Do we start using the D word dictator, we nice and humbly say he's got the. Authoritative. What's the word? Everybody used -tarian the Thornberry he acts like when he might be to take it to the next level. You become a student of history. He a dictator playbill. Basically, what is it that keeps us very simply being a free world free society of free country. A free press separation of powers and independent judicial system. He's trying to them all down, I believe, and this frightens me that study history. And I believe some of the worst things that have happened history. I think are capable and I think what our -tated figures do as they show their hands. And I think you know, basically what happened this week with bar Cincinnati since citizens. United small scary thing to democracy as possible and people should be frightened and he uses the dictator playbook. And if he if he loses will he accept the Renault elected? Absolutely not one thing authoritative figures. Telegraph he did it last election. He was already teeing it up Michael Kohn centers. And I know this if he loses he will not he's going to get out of office. He's not gonna it will not be graceful. Peaceful transition. I believe he'll say it's a rig system. I believe he's not telling people take to the streets. This is how dangerous this man is. All right. You have a show coming up tonight. And we're going to all be watching. I'm here Leded tonight. I love PM know. I know so much pressure. Do I need to put reruns of full house here you could do that. Got a great special. Tha I wanna play a little bit of it because you interviewed Pete Buddha jet who's like the guy right on the democratic side. Let's play a little clip. About eighty percent of the views of the various candidates on the Democratic Party are pretty well aligned. You're going to see some differences from the left most and center. Most candidates you're going to see some differences in what we choose to emphasize. But then the day while there will be some disagreements over substance the alignments pretty strong. And so what's really going to matter is what kind of messenger. Do we wanna put forward? A lot of the democratic base is doing right now, it's a risk assessment. We just put a split screen of you. And that young man young guy like that with Donald Trump. No, I'm just saying this the split scream of Trump and him will the American people be risk averse enough. Even though Donald Trump is not. Jolla fi. Is there does come down to what happens on on camera? Well, I think there are right now three three best anti-trumps different reasons or actually Pete by Senator Harris because of that what you get with Pete is everything every democratic winning candidate going back to Roosevelt has had the fresh new face doesn't win. The challenge is does he have the strength and gravitas Trump. Has it the thing that you have with by net? Traditionally would work against him. Is that he's been there done that is the American public ready for comfort food? Yeah. And as far as Kamala, you sort and last two here in boy that prosecutorial. Yeah. Rabbitohs and the way she handles herself. So those three different flavors are great anti-trumps for me. I'm looking forward to watching you on our air. Donny Deutsch welcome to the weekend. Thank you very much. Yeah. This is going to be. This week. Anybody could do the weekdays takes work weekend warriors. Yes, maurya. We'll take you very much tonight. Man. Come back more come back more to what you do it. Okay. Make sure to tonight for the premiere of donny's new show, Saturday night politics, Trump like that title because it sounds look at eight PM eastern preceded by special edition of a little weak PM doing at seven pm eastern time, no pressure more after the break. That is our show for the day. We'll be back tomorrow at ten AM Eastern High. It's Katy Tur want to keep up with MSNBC while you're on the go subscribe to the MSNBC daily newsletter. You'll get the best of what you've missed or in this unprecedented. Era of news, text MSNBC, two six six eight six six to subscribe.